Lewis, I am both a veteran and a cancer survivor. I lived for almost 2 years in Germany. I have also received emergency care outside the U.S. (in a country where Americans pay for their universal healthcare basically). My sister also lived several years longer with breast cancer….while in Canada. Eventually, she made the hard decision to come home, knowing the decision would kill her because the only care she could then access (as an unemployed student who had been doing post-doctoral work in theology) was hospice. She passed 3 months later, but at least with her family around.
I also know, at least according to Harvard in 2009, that some 45,000 Americans die each year for lack of affordable healthcare access. So, no my friend, while I have not sat on a hospital board (that is excellent community service on your part), ignorant on the topic I am not. Patrick Leary, Telrad 727-501-3735 From: Af [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 1:12 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli) You offer an argument on a technical point. A person "works" for whomever pays them. Only to that entity lies their loyalty with few exceptions. A single payer system does in fact mean that there is really only one supplier, the entity paying. That one institution sets guidelines, rules for care, what treatments are offered, what training will be paid for, and on and on. I can't speak for Canada but I when I was the chairman of a hospital board for 5 years we had a German doctor who worked at the hospital. We had long discussions about why she was here, the level of care, and affordability of healthcare. While she had a difficult time with the concept of a person paying for what they consumed she had no difficulty explaining why she was here. She was tired of watching people die waiting for treatment and getting a meager salary to be thoroughly frustrated doing so. The fact that my anecdotal example doesn't convince you is fine but that is the average not the exception. The military health system is crap just like the VA system. Other than battlefield trauma they should be abolished. But then again, I choose to make the most of the world I live in and not dream about some fairy tale world of my own construction. It appears to me you likely have never seen the underbelly of our health care system and the bizarre ways in which the government warps what is important by the mere fact of what, how, and when it chooses to reimburse providers for the care they give. If you have been, then it seems you choose to ignore the reality that is laid bare to the exposure; government screws up just about everything it lays its hands on. On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:32 AM Patrick Leary <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: In places like Canada and Germany, where healthcare is universal and paid through common burden via taxes, the doctors are NOT government employees. You take one episodic experience (a sincere and painful one for your family to be sure) with a failed system and use that to indict as bad and inefficient universal systems. In fact, the example you cite bolsters my argument, as the VA is run as it is because our system sucks where agencies like the VA are chronically underfunded and understaffed. The idea that private care somehow ceases to exist in a universal system is simply false. This is a key mistake some in our culture have been taught by ideologues bent on obscuring fact. People who advocate for “single payer” (and those who understand it factually) know the only real argument is how things are paid for, not how services are delivered. Additionally, in every place where universal care exists, there also exists elective choices that can be accessed outside the basic system. Patrick From: Af [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 12:21 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli) You assume I haven't when in fact I was part of the socialist healthcare system that some want to force everyone onto when I did need care the government was incapable of providing. My son was asthmatic and was in the hospital 6 times in one month. The military health system could not, or would not, care for him. Instead, they preferred to accuse my wife of mistreating him. What saved him was the PRIVATE health care system. We drove him several times to a very good PRIVATE hospital 4 hours away to get the care the government could not or would not provide even though my son was entitled to it. I was happy to pay for that our of my own pocket. Why? Not because they were trying to be bad at their job, they just were incompetent, untrained, and unwilling to do much about it. Without the private health care system and a doctor who sacrificed a great amount of his time for the reward of wealth he thought would be his reward I may have lost him. Maybe your the one who has never needed a life saving treatment or medicine. I have been there and it keenly illustrated that without the private sector (capitalism) and the incentive it provides a life may have been lost. I was willing to pay what it took to get my son the help he needed. Take that same case where there was no private sector. No son. I think I'll take my chances with the private sector I may be able to afford than the government sector that can't provide what i need at any cost. On your corporate welfare point I agree. There should be no medicare, medicaid, or food stamps so there is no passing the buck. What I mean by that is there should be no supplement that is a permanent entitlement. Everyone has hard times and needs a bit of help now and again. The system we have set up to permanently shackle the poor to entitlements is a disservice to everyone including them. If we did not have those programs the Wal-Marts of the US would have to either suffer the massive turnover as employees gained an understanding of what that wage really meant or up the anti. There was a time when you needed help you went to family and if not that, church. Even if you didn't believe what the guy handing out bread and soup believed, he had bread and soup. Although I must admit, from my limited experience in Wal-Mart it appears that they do employ the otherwise unemployable so there is that. On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:21 AM Patrick Leary <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: …or maybe never had a child in need of life-saving drugs. In any event, some can pretend this is good business, but we all pay for it in taxes for things like Medicare and Medicaid. Nothing happens in isolation. Sort of like how the American taxpayers are on the hook for billions in food stamp costs and other support because Wal-Mart and the like pay poverty wages. So the “capitalism” is really just passing their costs onto taxpayers. Once Big Business learned that trick, we were all hosed. Patrick Leary, Telrad 727-501-3735 From: Af [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 10:35 AM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli) Damn you guys are brutal! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Ken Hohhof <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Bah, humbug. -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Tyler Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:28 AM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli) And a free cell phone so they can call the pharmacy. -- Christopher Tyler MTCRE/MTCNA/MTCTCE/MTCWE Total Highspeed Internet Services 417.851.1107<tel:417.851.1107> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Weekley" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:27:13 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli) They need clothing and transportation to food, water, shelter and medicine. Or free delivery. Josh Luthman wrote: Food, water, shelter, medicine. The things anyone and everyone need to survive. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340<tel:937-552-2340> Direct: 937-552-2343<tel:937-552-2343> 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop? Why are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than congenital defects, and some accidents, most health problems are due to peoples choices. If our money is to be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right", don't we get a say in how they live? How many other human rights are being trampled on then? On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and demand? I'd agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have to stay there - but when you have some medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you can certainly avoid) I think as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340<tel:937-552-2340> <tel:937-552-2340<tel:937-552-2340>> Direct: 937-552-2343<tel:937-552-2343> <tel:937-552-2343<tel:937-552-2343>> 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism is the best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma is not exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These pharma companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period expires. That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This particular case may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in America is simply ludicrous. I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think that is price gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer rooms available on that particular night than are demanded at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come closer to being equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging. Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again. Since the hotel was full they probably could have been even higher. I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe they aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop rewarding people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't invent it but he obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they thought fair. Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake. Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over cost? Heck, why not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost and force him to provide his great product for the good of the people? There is a reason it is named Animal Farm. How many have read this book? While not about capitalism it does speak to the kind of central control that skulks below the overt argument for "controlling" this type of behavior. I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and say "so what?". People die every day for less meaning and in greater numbers. There is practically a mass suicide movement going on now with texting and driving. I don't see where people value there lives or others that much anyway when reading a text or email is more important than life itself. I guess I am just a big libertarian at heart. Give me the loose framework of a "fair market", whatever that is, and let the system fight it out. The word isn't fair, not ever going to be fair, stop trying to warp it to be that way. Have fun with that on a Friday and have a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanuka, or whatever else gets your boat floating. On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:02 AM Patrick Leary <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: The irony? Your local poor schlub a-hole can be arrested and charged if he doubles the price of gas, water, or other life-critical goods after a natural disaster – that’s a crime in America. Meanwhile, it’s completely legal for a company to raise a life-critical drug by over 5000% -- that’s capitalism in America. Shkreli is only the most written about example. This “business trend’ is all the rage and has been widely employed in the U.S. for a number of years now. http://news.health.com/2015/09/25/6-insane-examples-of-prescription-drug-price-increases/ Patrick *From:*Af [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>] *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2015 8:28 PM *To:* [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] OT - Martin Shkreli Apparently this guy AND HIS LAWYER were arrested today. Everybody knows him as the guy who raises drug prices 5000%, but I did not know he live streams almost daily to his fans. Watch the first video, isn't he just like every annoying, entitled, slacker kid living in his parents basement that we have to deal with bitching about his Internet? Except he is CEO of a drug company. I didn't think it was possible to hate him more, but watch the video. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8gjB1PSXv_oAUSAQ16S0fA ************************************************************************************ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. ************************************************************************************ ************************************************************************************ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. ************************************************************************************ ************************************************************************************ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. ************************************************************************************ ************************************************************************************ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. ************************************************************************************ ************************************************************************************ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. ************************************************************************************ ************************************************************************************ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. ************************************************************************************ ************************************************************************************ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. ************************************************************************************ ************************************************************************************ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. ************************************************************************************
