Faisal, you're really ruining all my fun today. I haven't had enough bourbon for this discussion.
On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Faisal Imtiaz <fai...@snappytelecom.net> wrote: > Aren't they all connected ? > > You are presenting a technical argument, which does not match up to > factual data from the field is put next to it... > > The comment about war and profiteering was in reply to your comment > regarding 'all life '. > > Regards > > Faisal Imtiaz > Snappy Internet & Telecom > 7266 SW 48 Street > Miami, FL 33155 > Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 > > Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net > > ------------------------------ > > *From: *"Josh Reynolds" <j...@kyneticwifi.com> > *To: *af@afmug.com > *Sent: *Monday, April 4, 2016 1:06:52 PM > *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] [ot] battleship engineering > > There's quite a bit of strawmen in your post Faisal. We went from talking > about weapons systems to civilian casualties, and then when the points > about the strides made in minimizing civilian casualties was brought up, > you turned it from there to a political and philosophical rant on the > nature of warfare and those who profit. > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Faisal Imtiaz <fai...@snappytelecom.net> > wrote: > >> Yes, yes, yes... you can make any argument you like, it is easy to >> justify the weapons and their efficiency on a relative scale... >> >> However, if you take into account the views from the other side, on the >> ground and a dose of reality.... even the most sane person has to rethink >> the argument... >> >> this is just one example of what I am talking about..... >> >> >> http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2012/09/25/national/drones-terrorising-pakistan-civilians-experts/ >> >> (read the expert opinion.... and ask yourself the question of who were, >> are the other 98% killed ) >> >> And when these nut cases come back and kill kids in schools as a >> retaliation... the folks there pay the price, again for so called >> 'precision bombs'. >> >> >If you want to make an argument that all life is precious, I disagree - >> there are some individuals out there that the world would be better off had >> they not been born... a lot of them, sadly. It is tragic when non-coms get >> caught in the crossfire. >> Ok, lets go with this argument, the question is who is going the be judge >> and jury for them ? Whose laws are you going to judge someone by, ours ? >> Theirs ? .... >> If we are so right and correct in everything we do ....Then why is it >> that we simply cannot allow open public trial of the detainees in >> Guantanamo ? >> >> War is a dirty business, everyone looses .... except for those who profit >> from it ! >> >> Faisal Imtiaz >> Snappy Internet & Telecom >> 7266 SW 48 Street >> Miami, FL 33155 >> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 >> >> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From: *"Josh Reynolds" <j...@kyneticwifi.com> >> *To: *af@afmug.com >> *Sent: *Monday, April 4, 2016 11:35:58 AM >> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] [ot] battleship engineering >> >> "The point is, modern fighting machines are much more destructive, and >> are indiscriminate killing machines .. they don't know the difference >> between solders and civilians... It might be sexy to talk about their >> destructive power, but one has to realize that destructive power is far >> more reaching to human beings....... and this is why we don't officially >> keep track of civilian deaths.... >> " >> >> Indiscriminate killing machines, yes. Always have been, and likely always >> will be. More destructive? Not necessarily. The initial Call For Fire for >> artillery given a map and compass has a "mean error" of 500m. It's still >> just as bad now as it was during World War I, maybe with slightly better >> numbers due to better mapping data. Fire a single Excalibur round out of >> one of the said artillery pieces however, and you can place the round >> inside a window multiple stories off the ground floor and even have a good >> understanding of possible building and collateral damage before the round >> is ever fired. >> >> Which one would you rather fire in a city? >> >> The same goes for carpet bombing. It's vastly fallen out of favor due to >> it's expense and mass damage, and the fact that for point targets a single >> 500-2000lb JDAM can have the precise effect. For moving targets, they now >> have laser guided JDAMS - GPS until near target, then switches to IR >> tracker. This means you're much more likely to have positive effects on >> target (EOT) than using a shotgun approach. >> >> Basically, CEP (Circular Error of Probability) went from 500m to single >> digit meters to centimeters now, depending on the weapons system. >> Understanding of collateral damage (persons / structures) is also much >> better. >> >> TLDR: Yes, we have some weapons systems capable of massive destruction. >> We've also come a long way in creating systems that have outstanding >> accuracy to lower round expenditures, create positive EOT, and minimize >> civilian and structural casualties. >> >> If you want to make an argument that all life is precious, I disagree - >> there are some individuals out there that the world would be better off had >> they not been born... a lot of them, sadly. It is tragic when non-coms get >> caught in the crossfire. >> >> On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Faisal Imtiaz <fai...@snappytelecom.net> >> wrote: >> >>> >>Perspective is a powerful thing. >>> Agreed.. >>> >>> >>.Not as high as the loss of life would have been if we were running >>> at one another with swords and bows, not as high as lining up in front of >>> one another taking turns to load and shoot, and not as high as it would be >>> had we been forced from our trenches into the waiting maw of the enemy with >>> the dull smell of onions in the air behind us. >>> >>> Hmm... opinion based on which account one has read... Most of those >>> battles ended in one day or within a short amount of time, the battle field >>> was always contained .... to soldiers. >>> >>> >>> The point is, modern fighting machines are much more destructive, and >>> are indiscriminate killing machines .. they don't know the difference >>> between solders and civilians... It might be sexy to talk about their >>> destructive power, but one has to realize that destructive power is far >>> more reaching to human beings....... and this is why we don't officially >>> keep track of civilian deaths.... >>> >>> >>> Faisal Imtiaz >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From: *"Josh Reynolds" <j...@kyneticwifi.com> >>> *To: *af@afmug.com >>> *Sent: *Monday, April 4, 2016 10:03:07 AM >>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] [ot] battleship engineering >>> >>> Not as high as the loss of life would have been if we were running at >>> one another with swords and bows, not as high as lining up in front of one >>> another taking turns to load and shoot, and not as high as it would be had >>> we been forced from our trenches into the waiting maw of the enemy with the >>> dull smell of onions in the air behind us. >>> >>> Citizens of London, Stalingrad, Berlin, Nagasaki and Hiroshima would >>> appreciate how "civilized" we have become from a certain point of view. >>> >>> Citizens of cities who have been invaded by ISIS/ISIL... Probably not so >>> much. >>> >>> Perspective is a powerful thing. >>> On Apr 4, 2016 8:09 AM, "Faisal Imtiaz" <fai...@snappytelecom.net> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> No offense meant to anyone.... >>>> >>>> But let me ask you one question:- >>>> >>>> What was the cost in human lives paid for that adventure ? >>>> (Both sides, good, bad, ugly...... human cost ?) >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Faisal Imtiaz >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From: *"David Milholen" <dmilho...@wletc.com> >>>> *To: *af@afmug.com >>>> *Sent: *Monday, April 4, 2016 8:24:36 AM >>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] [ot] battleship engineering >>>> >>>> I got to sit between two units on my M1A1 tank that had a fire mission >>>> into Kuwait and Iraq. >>>> The unit I called the BIg Ear sat up on the forward berm to identify >>>> targets of opportunity. >>>> These so called targets were other artillery that were firing on its >>>> own troops for desertion. >>>> By late evening the star clusters that littered the sky soon died down >>>> to one or two after the MRLS missions were done. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 4/4/2016 12:11 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote: >>>> >>>> My dream fire mission was MLRS :) >>>> On Apr 3, 2016 10:23 PM, "Cameron Crum" <cc...@wispmon.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm all for precision guided munitions, but nothing says we've come to >>>>> kick some ass like shelling an enemy position with the 16in guns from a >>>>> battleship. Talk about demoralizing the enemy. >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Josh Reynolds <j...@kyneticwifi.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Systems like that don't exist so much... At least, there are no guns >>>>>> of that size on a battleship that I'm aware of (16"). >>>>>> >>>>>> I know there are much smaller systems now for certain classes of >>>>>> warships. When I was going through my joint fires naval training we >>>>>> talked >>>>>> about a bunch of systems (that are now public knowledge). One of the >>>>>> newer >>>>>> naval guns has a 40+ nautical mile range and GPS guided round - similar >>>>>> to >>>>>> the Excalibur artillery round. Those are mostly automated systems. >>>>>> >>>>>> If I remember right, a full battery salvo from an Iowa class >>>>>> battleship on a surface target could spread out the round impact >>>>>> locations >>>>>> to create a 1Km x 1Km "casualty box". I always wanted the opportunity to >>>>>> employ that system :P >>>>>> On Apr 3, 2016 10:23 AM, "David Milholen" <dmilho...@wletc.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> What an AWEsome piece of history. >>>>>>> I wonder how many of those systems are completely automated and how >>>>>>> much faster reload time is ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/3/2016 1:59 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://youtu.be/_wT1xkRpCKk >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I love this stuff. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>> >> >
