I would assume a MIMO radio would take advantage of different RF
characteristics that an XPIC would not. Confirmation from someone smarter than
I?
I don't doubt the AF11FX is MIMO, but only they can answer if it's actually
MIMO or single radio XPIC. I assume there to be a difference.
MIMO doesn't necessarily require spatial diversity, though it is better. On the
IP20\820, so I can add another radio\dish on the same path on the same
frequency\polarity, but adding some spatial diversity (I assume a calculated
amount and I assume in most cases, vertical separation) and double capacity?
-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gino Villarini" <g...@aeronetpr.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 8:34:31 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Highest capacity 6 GHz system
I need to pitch in here..
Cause the term MIMO its being used differently by manufacturers of Licensed and
Unlicensed Gear:
UBNT AF11x its a XPIC full duplex radio, meaning you can use the same channel
pair in both polarities (if licensed). You cant use different channels in
different polarities
-UBNT might call it MIMO because of its traditional marketing for its
unlicensed gear
Ceragon IP20 and Cambium 820 are a dual RF Core true MIMO radios as you can
actually double your Bandwidth by adding a spatial diverse 2nd antenna and
radio.
For example:
You can do XPIC with the same channel pair as the AF11X and then double your
throughput by adding another link (with antenna) in the same channel pair in
the same path, so you end up with 2 ODUS and 2 antennas per end, installed at a
calculated distance in the tower to double your speed.
Mimosa its a different radio at its a hdx unit with a pseudo-mimo. It uses the
same channel at both ends, using both polarities at the same time. AFAIK you
cant operate it in single pol/SISO. Its a great radio with lots of plus
features and price but its a BW hog at it give the lowest Bits per Hz
From: Af < af-boun...@afmug.com > on behalf of Mike Hammett < af...@ics-il.net
>
Reply-To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com >
Date: Monday, October 24, 2016 at 11:15 PM
To: " af@afmug.com " < af@afmug.com >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Highest capacity 6 GHz system
Saying it's MIMO is a great way too to overstate your spectral efficiency, by
ignoring the fact that you compare 2 polarity systems against 1 polarity
systems.
-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
Gino Villarini
President
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Skorup" < geo...@cbcast.com >
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 9:23:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Highest capacity 6 GHz system
OK, let me make this clearer. I'm talking about FDD systems using one channel
*pair* only. You have a Tx hi and a Tx lo.
AF5 (not X) or 24/HD in FDD mode. Say AF24 running 24.1 Tx and 24.2 Rx. Vice
versa for the opposite end. It's a "MIMO" radio system.
Now take traditional microwave vendor X. Same stuff. FDD. Tx hi both polarities
at one end, Tx low both polarities at the other. This is called an "XPIC" radio
system.
What is the difference between XPIC and MIMO?
Sounds to me like two guys named Pete and Peter walk into a bar. Is the only
difference their name, but they're actually the same guy because Steve is drunk
and has double vision? Or is Steve not that drunk yet and the two guys are
nearly identical twin brothers?
Basically, what the hell is the fundamental difference between the two?
On 10/24/2016 8:35 PM, Josh Reynolds wrote:
There's 2 diplexers per side, so that would be 2 channel pairs, right? 2xTx
2xRx? MIMO-FD?
On Oct 24, 2016 8:32 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz" < fai...@snappytelecom.net > wrote:
<blockquote>
Yes, full duplex (as in using one channel for Tx & one for RX)
MIMO as in using both polarities.. yes
but as in using both channels to send & receive ... no not as per their specs.
Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net
<blockquote>
From: "Josh Reynolds" < j...@kyneticwifi.com >
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 8:51:52 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Highest capacity 6 GHz system
<blockquote>
AF11X actually has two internal radios if my understanding of the platform is
correct. It is Full Duplex + MIMO.
On Oct 24, 2016 7:03 PM, "Bill Prince" < part15...@gmail.com > wrote:
<blockquote>
It's not 100% clear from your description, but the AF11x is using both
polarities.
The Mimosa is a very strange duck. Even using 2 channels and 2 polarities,
there is no way to actually run it full duplex. The high-latency half duplex is
pretty much baked in. IMO, it squanders air bandwidth at the expense of
cheapness. And it's highest modulation rate is still only 256QAM. We had
serious trouble trying to even get 256QAM on a relatively modest distance link.
bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>
On 10/24/2016 4:28 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
<blockquote>
I will take a crack at it... just to make sure that My understanding is correct
too.
In licensed radio world, the default lingo is as follows:-
A single channel is actually two channels, one channel is used to Transmit and
the other channel is used to receive.
and each of these channels pair can be either in V polarity or H polarity (but
not mingled).
XPIC is used to describe a radio where you can mount two radios together, one
using the H polarity and the other using V polarity, but the same channel...
But still only one channel (H + V) is used to transmit and the other channel is
used to Receive. (Thus Full duplex)
MIMO...., = One Channel, both H & V polarities are used, and either one can be
used for Tx and Rx (thus half duplex)
AF11x = Traditional Licensed radio... one channel/polarity for TX and one
channel/polarity for RX
Mimosa B11 = Disruptive... a very odd animal... can be configured as...
Use one channel (both polarities) for TX and one channel (both polarities) for
RX
or ... Use Two Channels, both polarities in each channel, and use either one to
TX & RX (more like a dual channel MIMO)
AF5 = Uses one channel (both polarities) for Tx and one channel (both
polarities) for RX
AF24 = can be used as
One Channel (Dual Polarities) for TX and one Channel (Dual Polarities) for RX
or can use the same one channel (dual polarities) for Tx and Rx.
Hope this is as clear as mud !
:)
Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net
<blockquote>
From: "George Skorup" <geo...@cbcast.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 7:09:11 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Highest capacity 6 GHz system
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
What's so much different between XPIC and MIMO? I'm asking because I guess I'm
just ignorant. MIMO = single carrier (is OFDM implied?), dual streams? And XPIC
= dual carriers (is single-carrier QAM per channel implied?) and independent
streams that are aggregated in hardware, perhaps as simple as a LAG on the
internal switch? Or does XPIC add some more magic?
So then what is the UBNT AF11X considered? Or the AF5 and 24 for that matter
since they're also capable of FDD.
On 10/24/2016 5:23 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
<blockquote>
Can a non-vendor tell me if at higher order modulations if there's limiting
gain from co-channel XPIC? I assume it works to some degree because it's
marketed (yes, I have a tub of salt over here), but at some point the
modulations would be sensitive enough where the X-pol isolation isn't
sufficient?
Okay, a vendor can if they're more technical than salesy.
I'm not meaning to imply John was salesy.
;-)
-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
From: "John Seaman" <j...@trangosys.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 3:55:17 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Highest capacity 6 GHz system
Hi Ken, the Lynx and Orion are largely identical. The biggest difference
between the two is that the Orion supports XPIC where as the Lynx does not.
Keep in mind that either model can be set up for 2+0, but only with the Orion
can both radios operate on the same channel. Other than that, the Orion does
offer higher TX power (for certain frequencies) compared to the Lynx. However
with 6 GHz, the TX frequency for Lynx and Orion are the same. Orion also
features SynchE/1588 functionality which is not found on the Lynx. Both models
now support buffer size up to 8 MB.
John Seaman | Sales | Trango Systems, Inc. |
+1-858-248-4006 |
www.trangosys.com
Trango
Systems
Innovating Microwave Backhaul ™
On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Ken Hohhof < af...@kwisp.com > wrote:
<blockquote>
Jeremy, I’m trying to remember, can you upgrade that Lynx to 2+0 with a license
key as long as you don’t need XPIC? Trango doesn’t spell it out very well on
their website, but it looks like the major differences between Lynx and Orion
are buffer size, XPIC, and maybe the interface and powering options? So that
you could still double the throughput as long as you can license a different
frequency pair for the other polarization. And the issue of the wired interface
speed.
From: Af [mailto: af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Jeremy
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 10:16 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Highest capacity 6 GHz system
I don't know who has the biggest or best, but my 6GHz Trango Apex Lynx has been
rock solid for going on four years now. It does 700Mbps FDX. I believe that the
Trango Orion has XPIC up to 1.5Gbps in a 56Mhz channel.
On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote:
<blockquote>
Why in the world would they buy Exalt?
On Oct 21, 2016 8:10 PM, "Jaime Solorza" < losguyswirel...@gmail.com > wrote:
<blockquote>
I thought Crisco bought out Exalt
On Oct 21, 2016 5:10 PM, "Ken Hohhof" < af...@kwisp.com > wrote:
<blockquote>
I thought I got an ad recently from Exalt about a big sale through the end of
the year on Extreme Air 6Hz. Oops, I just found the email, and it’s everything
but 6 GHz. Not sure I’d buy Exalt anyway. Maybe someone else was having an
overstock sale on 6 GHz?
From: Af [mailto: af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 5:50 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Highest capacity 6 GHz system
First I have to find out if there are channels in this area.
Then I have a passive repeater to deal with...
Not a simple path to engineer.
From: Daniel White
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 4:33 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Highest capacity 6 GHz system
Well you can only use 60MHz channels max. That helps make it more competitive.
6GHz most likely precludes higher modulations… you just won’t have the link
budget. Also depends if you’re going all outdoor or split-mount/all-indoor.
I’d be shocked if there is a winner here – I’d go with the solution your most
comfortable with.
My guess is you will end up with Ceragon/Cambium or SIAE. DragonWave Harmony
Advanced is certainly worth a look, although I’m not sure about 6GHz
availability since it just started shipping.
Chuck feel free to contact me offlist and we could look at some things.
Daniel White
Managing Director – Hardware Distribution Sales
ConVergence Technologies
Cell: +1 (303) 746-3590
dwh...@converge-tech.com
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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