The last one was from "a letter to Bristol Palin", after a battle over displaying the ten commandments on public property. It's a bit of a different argument than the holiday displays, but the basis of the argument is the same.
On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 7:54 PM, Jeremy <[email protected]> wrote: > "*Argument One: Our Legal System is Based on the Ten Commandments* > > The legal system of the United States of America is based on the U.S. > Constitution, which includes its own Ten Commandments, if you will. It > starts off with ten rules which ensure the freedoms we have come to know > and love in this modern democracy. *The very first one*—in fact the very > first line of the Bill of Rights—says that government shouldn’t be in the > business of favoring one set of religious beliefs over another. Religious > liberty is something Americans have historically taken very seriously, and > we have always tried to remember that the only way one person can be free > to worship as she pleases is if everyone else is free to worship as they > please (or by extension free not to worship at all). > > *In short, it stipulates that one God cannot be placed above all the > others*. That’s bedrock for religious liberty in this country. No > favoritism. > > Now let’s look at the Ten Commandments of the Bible. That set of rules > *begins > with the exact opposite assertion*: That there is only one true > God—ostensibly that would be the God of the Hebrews, Yahweh—and all others > are illegitimate. “You shall have no other gods before me,” it says as > clear as day. > > So right out of the gate, we’ve got a fundamental conflict between these > two sets of rules. One is fundamentally pluralistic and “secular” in the > sense that it resolves to be nonsectarian, free from entanglement with any > one denominational belief set. The other is just the opposite–it prohibits > any other commitments and places this One True Faith above all over belief > systems. These two ideologies are diametrically opposed to each other. I > don’t see how anyone who’s thinking very hard about this can escape the > conclusion that you have to choose which of these two ideologies should > govern our local, state, and federal governments. > > What you do in your own houses of worship is another story. According to > the way our government is set up, in the private sphere an individual, a > family, or a religious community is free to worship (or not worship) as > they see fit. But in a nation founded on the principle of nonsectarian > pluralism, you simply cannot say that our legal system is based on the > dictates of one religion or another, least of all one that starts out the > way the Ten Commandments does. > > Incidentally I could go on and cover other things that don’t sit right as > well. For example, the notion of observing a Sabbath (that’s on Saturdays, > btw) isn’t exactly carried over into the New Testament, and simply saying > that you worship on Sundays isn’t the same thing, strictly speaking. We > don’t have laws about making graven images either (which is a good thing > considering this monument is literally a graven image), nor can we possibly > legislate coveting. > > *Come to think of it, can you imagine how the arch-capitalists among the > GOP would howl if we began to write laws about coveting?* Good heavens. > Are you really sure you want to say the Ten Commandments should be the > basis for American legal system? But I digress… > > Those things which you can extract from the Ten Commandments which made > their way into our legal code like lying, stealing, and murder predated the > Hebrew religion by many centuries and are nearly universal among belief > systems the world over. So it’s not really accurate to talk as if the Ten > Commandments are the sole proprietary basis for those things, either." > -Neil Potter > > On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 7:51 PM, Josh Reynolds <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Excellent points. >> >> On Dec 21, 2016 8:46 PM, "Jeremy" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Because it gives the appearance that government is favoring a specific >>> religion, in violation of the 14th amendment. It shows a lack of >>> separation of church and state. If we are going to allow christian >>> displays on public property then we also have to allow the Church of Satan >>> to erect Baphomet as well. The issue is that Satanic churches, Muslims, >>> and Secular belief systems are not given the same rights as Christians. >>> Just look at the Atheists and agnostics who have attempted to give the >>> opening invocations at our legislature meetings all over the country, and >>> the reactions that they got. They have been berated and disrespected. >>> This is the ground zero for the establishment of a government-favored >>> religion. >>> >>> "*The claim that America was founded as a “Christian nation” is at best >>> a gross over-simplification and at worst a myth fabricated in order to >>> manipulate contemporary sensibilities*. Many of the prominent >>> “Founding Fathers,” were in fact not Christians in the sense that >>> contemporary evangelical, mainline Protestant, and Roman Catholic churches >>> understand the term. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, >>> Benjamin Franklin, and a host of others were Deists, or at least influenced >>> by deist philosophy. They conceived of God as a divine watchmaker – this >>> impersonal, inaccessible deity set the universe in motion then sat back and >>> watched history unfold completely independent of any transcendent >>> intervention, miracles, or divine-human relationships (Jefferson famously >>> edited the New Testament to remove all references to Jesus as a divine >>> miracle worker and render him merely a moral philosopher). The position of >>> these Founding Fathers was far from any orthodox theology of divine >>> immanence. >>> >>> Further, the idea that the United States could be a “Christian nation” >>> is theologically problematic. The only “Christian nation” which the New >>> Testament envisions is the Kingdom of God, which transcends national, >>> cultural, and ethnic boundaries. Were the United States to be a “Christian >>> nation,” she would have to do more than celebrate Christmas as a federal >>> holiday and display the Ten Commandments in her courthouses. If she were >>> held to the same standards to which the New Testament holds the Christian >>> community, the United States would have to embody Christian principles, >>> including the mandate to love one’s enemy, eschew power, put away the >>> sword, give freely without any expectation of repayment, and – because she >>> is very rich – sell all her material possessions, donate the proceeds to >>> the poor, then take up a cross of discipleship. The consumerism and >>> materialism which characterize so much of the American ethos – Jefferson’s >>> “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” was a modification of John >>> Locke’s “life, liberty, and the pursuit of property,” and indeed most >>> versions of the American Dream equate property with happiness – seem to be >>> at odds with most versions of core Christian values. In short, the United >>> States is not a “Christian nation,” and simply displaying representations >>> of the Ten Commandments in public locations does not change this reality." >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Jaime Solorza < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> yep but you will probably be yelling oh God when under dangerous or >>>> extremely pleasurable situation, >>>> Like Blood Sweat and Tears said, "I know there is no heaven, but I pray >>>> there is no Hell!" >>>> zaz...in your face >>>> >>>> Jaime Solorza >>>> Wireless Systems Architect >>>> 915-861-1390 <(915)%20861-1390> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 2:39 PM, That One Guy /sarcasm < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> so, we use the Gregorian calendar which is named after a pope... I >>>>> wonder if I can skip court dates on the grounds it offends me >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Bill Prince <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Roadside displays should be free speech. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anything guvmint should be looked at suspiciously. Whether it is >>>>>> christian, jewish, muslim, pagan, or whatever. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 12:46 PM, Jay Weekley < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe. All those displays of Lady Justice at the court houses have >>>>>> to go. >>>>>> >>>>>> Chuck McCown wrote: >>>>>> > How about flowers or crosses on the side of the road where someone >>>>>> died? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Do you tear down the pyramids or stone hinge? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > -----Original Message----- From: Jay Weekley >>>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2016 1:42 PM >>>>>> > To: [email protected] >>>>>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - trolling again >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Do you stop all religious displays or just Christian, Jewish or >>>>>> Muslim? >>>>>> > There are plenty of religious symbols from ancient religions all >>>>>> over >>>>>> > public property. I'd kind of like them removed as well. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Lewis Bergman wrote: >>>>>> >> I have a friend who is an atheist. He compares it to how I feel >>>>>> about >>>>>> >> any resources from my tax money going to abortion. Not sure I >>>>>> agree >>>>>> >> with the equivalency of the resources involved but I can see his >>>>>> >> point. If that is his only issue with my stance I would like to >>>>>> ask >>>>>> >> to stop all displays of Nativity Scenes in trade for not funding >>>>>> any >>>>>> >> abortions. Anyway, I thought his argument was fairly reasoned. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> I still ddon't understand why they care. It seems some are just >>>>>> >> purely to try and rub Christians nose in the fact they don't >>>>>> believe >>>>>> >> and think you are stupid for doing so. I view it like a lot of >>>>>> >> things. I don't care f you are gay or straight, married or just >>>>>> >> living with someone, Dem or Rep. As long as it doesn't affect me I >>>>>> >> simply don't give a shit. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 1:09 PM That One Guy /sarcasm >>>>>> >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> attention seeking behavior >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> most of these "athiests" "agnostics" "satanists" whatever "ist" >>>>>> >> they present as, couldnt even tell you the basic tenets of their >>>>>> >> "ist" and all they do is parrot simplistic talking points from >>>>>> the >>>>>> >> borg of nevergrewups ... "if you celebrate christmas, than a >>>>>> >> pagan" nonsense like that >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> society has slowly moved to the age of adulthood being a sliding >>>>>> >> scale, with fewer and fewer on the lower end every generation. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> the bulk of actual athiests, agnostics, satanists and other non >>>>>> >> attention whore ists could really give a shit less what others >>>>>> do >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> just remember, just because the loudmouth makes the most noise, >>>>>> it >>>>>> >> doesnt mean they represent the majority of their fellows. Also, >>>>>> >> remember, everyone is unique, just like everyone else. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Chuck McCown <[email protected] >>>>>> >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> We have days on the calendar about people. >>>>>> >> Presidents day used to be Wash’n and Linc’n bdays. >>>>>> >> MLK day. >>>>>> >> Casmir Pulaski day. >>>>>> >> Columbus day. >>>>>> >> So, why are the atheists and others so unhappy about >>>>>> displays >>>>>> >> on public property about Jesus. >>>>>> >> I doubt anyone in Illinios would get unhappy if the local >>>>>> park >>>>>> >> had a Lincoln-Douglas plaque... actually Quincy had exactly >>>>>> >> that. >>>>>> >> Public displays frequently celebrate or inform about events >>>>>> in >>>>>> >> history. >>>>>> >> Our legal system has its basis in the bible, with some of >>>>>> the >>>>>> >> legal doctrine based on the advise of Jesus. >>>>>> >> He lived. He taught. He gave advice. It affected >>>>>> history. >>>>>> >> Just like MLK. >>>>>> >> But on MLK day do the pentagram sculptures try to share >>>>>> space >>>>>> >> with MLK events? >>>>>> >> I don’t get why the Jesus events on public property are such >>>>>> >> an insult or affront to some people. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> -- If you only see yourself as part of the team but you >>>>>> don't >>>>>> >> see >>>>>> >> your team as part of yourself you have already failed as part of >>>>>> >> the team. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> No virus found in this message. >>>>>> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> >>>>>> >> Version: 2016.0.7924 / Virus Database: 4739/13627 - Release Date: >>>>>> >> 12/21/16 >>>>>> >> >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > ----- >>>>>> > No virus found in this message. >>>>>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>>> > Version: 2016.0.7924 / Virus Database: 4739/13629 - Release Date: >>>>>> > 12/21/16 >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your >>>>> team as part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >
