With modern radios in the 35W to 50W max load range, you can go a surprisingly long distance with 18AWG stranded copper (such as from basement to roof of a 45 floor building) with voltage drop that is totally within the acceptable operating range limits of modern licensed band -48VDC fed radios.
Such as starting from whatever your 52-53VDC float voltage is in the basement and as measured at the radio, far above 45VDC at the roof. On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 12:42 PM, Chuck McCown <[email protected]> wrote: > What he said... plus the wires can be smaller and less cost. > > *From:* Eric Kuhnke > *Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2017 1:36 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Our UBNT AF11x experience > > Say that again when you're building pure Ethernet 1, 10 and 100GbE > backbone links for an ISP that has its own AS, traffic exchanges at > multiple IXes and spans a 3-state sized area... -48VDC is not obsolete, > it's an industry standard for many good reasons. > > -48VDC is very useful unless you enjoy masochism and building power > systems that go AC-to-DC-to-AC-to-DC (AC wall power, to the AC input of a > true sinewave AC-input/AC-output UPS, running loads off its inverter with a > DC battery bank inverter, fed through its output to the AC power inputs to > equipment like switches which run on 12VDC power internally inside the > equipment). > > Also much higher efficiency whether you have a POP with a thermal load of > 1, 5, 15 or 20kW. > > That's before I even get into the idea of photovoltaic/off-grid 48VDC > systems which have no AC powered equipment whatsoever. > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Robert <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Seems to me caring about -48VDC power feeds would be like caring about >> ATM transport on fiber... Legacy considerations but not necessary for new >> infrastructure moving forward. SFP ports are modern capability... >> >> On 1/16/17 11:58 AM, Eric Kuhnke wrote: >> >> In my opinion things like the B11 and AF11X should be considered in their >> own special low cost category... It wins in bps/$ and other figures, but >> if you divide licensed band 11, 18 and 23 GHz radios (FCC band plan) into >> generally two categories: >> >> a) Radios that take direct -48VDC power feeds and have SFP ports >> >> b) Radios that do not take direct -48VDC and/or do not have an SFP port >> >> There's an emerging divide between the two categories, where you have >> things like the 1024QAM radios from traditional FDD manufacturers in >> category B, and things like the B11 and AF11X in category A. >> >> Category A will probably be a huge growth market for small WISPs that >> have no reasonable expectation of affording a $14,000 licensed link any >> time soon. >> >> On Sat, Jan 14, 2017 at 8:24 AM, Mathew Howard <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Well, comparing bits/mhz/$, I really don't think anything else comes >>> close to the AF11... the B11 might beat it on bits/$ (it's close anyway, >>> and it has the advantage of more overall capacity... and SFP), and plenty >>> of other radios can beat it on bits/mhz, but comparing all three the AF11 >>> is a pretty clear winner. >>> >>> So what it really comes down to, is if it can handle enough bandwidth >>> for a given link in the available spectrum. >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 14, 2017 at 5:07 AM, Gino Villarini <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I’ll guess that is the way to get them produced at way lower price… >>>> >>>> I always use the bits/mhz/$ when comparing radios >>>> >>>> From: Af <[email protected]> on behalf of Josh Reynolds < >>>> [email protected]> >>>> Reply-To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >>>> Date: Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 12:56 AM >>>> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Our UBNT AF11x experience >>>> >>>> There's an ongoing discussion about this. It seems it has to do with >>>> the hitless ARQ modulation change support. >>>> >>>> Basically, it's a trade-off. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Gino Villarini* >>>> President >>>> Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968 >>>> >>>> On Jan 13, 2017 10:14 PM, "Mike Hammett" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I love how Gary says they use so much better, newer technology... but >>>>> they get worse throughput. *sigh* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- >>>>> Mike Hammett >>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> >>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> >>>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> >>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> >>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> >>>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> >>>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From: *"Tim Hardy" <[email protected]> >>>>> *To: *[email protected] >>>>> *Sent: *Friday, January 13, 2017 5:54:53 PM >>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Our UBNT AF11x experience >>>>> >>>>> Post 6 here discusses the use of ARQ rather than FEC. >>>>> >>>>> https://community.ubnt.com/t5/airFiber/AF11x-Capacity/td-p/1737631 >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* Af <[email protected]> on behalf of George Skorup < >>>>> [email protected]> >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, January 13, 2017 6:41:10 PM >>>>> *To:* [email protected] >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Our UBNT AF11x experience >>>>> >>>>> Which I don't understand. Sounds like strong FEC? >>>>> >>>>> On 1/13/2017 5:36 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote: >>>>> >>>>> According to Link Planner, PTP820S (IP20S) gets around 243M at 256QAM, >>>>> 347M at 2048QAM (350M with header compression). So add that to George’s >>>>> Trango/Exalt/SAF list. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Af [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Chris Gustaf >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, January 13, 2017 5:20 PM >>>>> *To:* [email protected] >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Our UBNT AF11x experience >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Real usable capacity at Layer 2 Ethernet depends on several variables >>>>> besides the modulation level and the regulatory bandwidth. For 1024 QAM >>>>> there are 10 bits per symbol so theoretically one would expect to get 400 >>>>> Mbps in a 40 MHz channel (10 bits x 40 MHz symbol rate). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To actually make a radio that meets FCC spectrum masks, a reduction of >>>>> the symbol rate down to around 35 MHz is required plus filtering, giving a >>>>> max of 350 Mbps over the air. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> After that, Forward Error Correction (FEC) is required which is >>>>> typically around 85-90 % for most microwave radios using LDPC, giving a >>>>> net >>>>> throughput of around 300 to 315 Mbps. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Add header compression at layer 2 which in the worst case for large >>>>> packets adds about 2.5 % improvement and you get to around 325 Mbps, which >>>>> is what Trango and others get on a single 40 MHz channel with the newest >>>>> technology. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ubiquiti maybe using a lower FEC rate like 75-80% (or a lower symbol >>>>> rate if the filtering is not steep enough) and no header compression, >>>>> which >>>>> would give them about 250 Mbps for large packets. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hope that helps! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Chris Gustaf >>>>> >>>>> Trango Systems >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Mathew Howard <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What other radios will only do 250Mbps (502.4Mbps capacity according >>>>> to the data sheet...) on one 40mhz single polarity channel at 256qam? The >>>>> other's I've looked at are typically around 300Mbps... >>>>> >>>>> Not that I'm saying the AF11 is a bad radio, I plan on putting up at >>>>> least a few of them this year... but I find it a little funny that they >>>>> use >>>>> 1024qam as a selling point, when it can't do as much throughput at 1024qam >>>>> as other radios do at 256qam. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 4:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I think this whole thread can be summed up that there's no magical way >>>>> to get around the shannon limit and bps/Hz coding efficiency for a given >>>>> channel size and modulation... From the technical perspective of people >>>>> who have to really understand the FDX capacity of a new PTP link, the ubnt >>>>> marketing department is divorced from reality, it's not 1200 Mbps no >>>>> matter >>>>> how many slick PDFs they publish. >>>>> >>>>> One 40 MHz channel single polarity at 1024QAM 5/6 code rate is going >>>>> to be nearly the same efficiency bps/Hz from many different manufacturers. >>>>> Multiply as necessary for dual polarity or for larger channel sizes such >>>>> as >>>>> 60, 80 or 112 MHz. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 9:38 AM, Faisal Imtiaz < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> FYI... on a "single" 40mhz channel 'dual polarity' (mimo) the >>>>> expected throughput on Af11x is 500meg duplex. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Faisal Imtiaz >>>>> Snappy Internet & Telecom >>>>> 7266 SW 48 Street >>>>> Miami, FL 33155 >>>>> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 <%28305%29%20663-5518> >>>>> >>>>> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 <%28305%29%20663-5518> Option 2 or Email: >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> *From: *"Josh Baird" <[email protected]> >>>>> *To: *[email protected] >>>>> *Sent: *Friday, January 13, 2017 10:30:10 AM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Our UBNT AF11x experience >>>>> >>>>> But if I can get 80mhz channels in both polarities (running at >>>>> 56Mhz/1024QAM with this radio), I should be able to at least double he >>>>> capacity of my PTP-800 link which can do 228Mbps. Right? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 5:55 PM, Mike Hammett <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> At 40 MHz and a single polarity, you're looking at an almost >>>>> insignificant increase in throughput. >>>>> >>>>> Their claim is 1.2 gb+. >>>>> Cut that in half as they're advertising the aggregate, so 600 mb+. >>>>> That's using both polarities, so now only 300 mb+. >>>>> Only I haven't heard of anyone getting much more than 500 in a single >>>>> direction (they may certainly exist, I just haven't seen them), so now >>>>> that >>>>> 300 is really only 250. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Not much of an upgrade unless you can also get larger channels in both >>>>> polarities. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- >>>>> Mike Hammett >>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> >>>>> >>>>> *Midwest Internet Exchange* >>>>> >>>>> *The Brothers WISP* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> *From: *"Josh Baird" <*[email protected]*> >>>>> *To: **[email protected]* >>>>> *Sent: *Thursday, January 12, 2017 11:47:42 AM >>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Our UBNT AF11x experience >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> This PTP800 is only capable of running at 40Mhz (ODU-A) so it can only >>>>> do 228Mbps full-duplex. The AF11x should be able to do much more than >>>>> that, right? <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 12:05 PM, Gino Villarini <*[email protected]*> >>>>> wrote: <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> IIRC, PTP800 is Remec Style, you'll need Remec to N connector adapters >>>>> (AF11x is N) <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> What do you expect to achieve with this upgrade? Not much capacity >>>>> difference between PTP800 and AF11x, maybe 50-80- mbps more. Only if you >>>>> have a xpic license you can double your throughput with the af11x >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> *From: *Af <*[email protected]*> on behalf of Josh Baird < >>>>> *[email protected]*> >>>>> *Reply-To: *"*[email protected]*" <*[email protected]*> >>>>> *Date: *Thursday, January 12, 2017 at 9:12 AM >>>>> *To: *"*[email protected]*" <*[email protected]*> >>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Our UBNT AF11x experience >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> Good news - thanks for sharing. <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> Somewhat un-related question: <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> I have a PTP-800 link using these dishes: >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *http://www.hol4g.com/AC/product.aspx?number=ANC-VHLP3-11W-RR1&p=237127&sc=0* >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> Do you know if I can re-use these dishes with the AF11x? Do I need >>>>> adapters? <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> Josh <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Gino Villarini* >>>>> >>>>> President >>>>> >>>>> Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968 >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Gino Villarini <*[email protected]*> >>>>> wrote: <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> Hey all, just dropping by to share our experience with AF11x, we habe >>>>> been beta testing the unit since Sept and for the last 3 months, the unit >>>>> has been rock solid. <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> We are very happy with its performance, just wished it had a SFP port! >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> This unit replaced a Mimosa B11 unit that we were having some >>>>> intermitent throughtput issues, <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> The swap was easy since we reused the Jirous Dishes and only had to >>>>> add the af11x adapters to it, <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> The link went live on 9/21/16 and on the first weeks we experienced >>>>> some lockups, but after a revised beta fw was applied, all issues went >>>>> away. <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> For UBNT, please add SFP port and continue the good work towards a >>>>> af6x and af18x <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Gino Villarini* >>>>> >>>>> President >>>>> >>>>> Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968 >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> >
