I get 100% credit for the energy I produce. I have an $8.50 minimum bill. But if I am a net producer, the account gets zeroed out each March. I will not lose much as my array is sized just about right.

-----Original Message----- From: Robert Andrews
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 3:13 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent battery deals?

At least here in NV, it's only a 9/10ths offset and the offset is
calculated month to month and settled at the end of the year.

On 02/08/2017 12:00 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
There are numerous things which at utility-scale become more feasible
when storing energy.  Flow batteries are a good example.   Another is
storage of energy via various methods of potential energy such as
pumping water to a reservoir.   Or cracking hydrogen from water and then
burning it when you need it.  Or dozens of other options.

I don't feel that every one of us maintaining our own storage system is
necessarily the most green idea.  Generally as a homeowner I'll end up
buying a solution which may last 5 years and then I have to replace it.
Utilities can afford to buy 20 or 30 year lifetime storage plants.
When the conversation becomes 'how do we reform the grid so it is now a
sharing and storage system' then we can start talking about useful
things with the grid - and how to pay for it.   The problem is that the
concept of what the grid is is not in line with what it needs to be come.

The other thing you need to realize is that the cost of maintaining the
grid is the same whether you use it or not.  The line to my house costs
the energy company the exact same money to maintain it whether I pull no
energy or a lot of energy.  The sizing of the line is based on peaks,
not consumption.  Just like sizing a wireless network - you have to plan
for worst case and your costs for the transmission lines are set based
on that worst case load.  The problem is that the billing for the
transmission lines has always been set based on usage, not peak load.
Solar is changing the ratio of demand to usage and in many cases making
it worse.  I know of at least a few homeowners who have moved their home
heating to 100% electric - increasing their demand on the grid during
winter, and offsetting that 100% with solar during the summer months.
The system needs to be sized for the winter loads - and the costs
associated with it are incurred accordingly.  So those homeowners have
increased the cost of the transmission system by their winter demand,
yet are not paying anything at all to the utility company.  (In the
cases I know of the net metering law permits 100% offset of the energy
charges).




On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Robert <i...@avantwireless.com
<mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>> wrote:

    They cannot "Store Energy" except by the process of not producing
    it. i.e. turning the consumption down of fuel, or water or whatever
    is turning the turbines.   That does NOT cost them anything except
    the lost profit of selling it to you.   The infrastructure is paid
    for at construction.  Ask most developers or someone who doesn't
    have power already plumbed to a location.   Maintenance, yes it
    calculated into the price per KW, and yes there is also fixed fees
    that you pay as part of that.  Reducing your consumption should
    reduce your part of the Maintenance till you get to the fixed fee.
     But adding another fee because you reduce your consumption is crazy.


    On 2/7/17 4:59 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

        Here's the problem with net metering as I see it:

        Today, the simplistic net metering rules which were enacted
        basically
        require the utility company to take energy from you, "store it"
        somehow,
        and then return it to you at no cost to you.  So the utility
        company is
        stuck with footing the bill for maintaining the line to you and
        all the
infrastructure needed to fulfill your needs when the sun isn't down.
        This just doesn't seem fare, and yes, it drives the cost up for
        all of
        the 'solar have-nots'.

        On the other hand, some of the stuff the utility companies are
        trying to
        get away with is also highway robbery.   Buying at wholesale
        rates from
        customers and selling it back to them at retail seems unfair.
        Charging
        "capacity fees" seems bad as well.   The really irritating thing
        is the
utilities who are starting to charge a 'solar used on the premises'
        charge which basically means if you are using solar to reduce
        your grid
energy consumption and not selling excess back to the grid, they'll
        still charge you for being tied to the grid based on how much
        capacity
        you have.

        The quicker that the energy companies figure out that they are
        not only
        energy providers, but that they should be energy storage
        companies as
        well the better.   That way, you could have a 'buy energy from the
energy company' rate, and a 'store energy for me rate'. And none of
        this crap they're trying to pull right now.  If you don't want
        to have
        the utility company store it for you at whatever rate they're
        charging,
        then you go buy a powerwall and then only buy energy from the
        utility
        company when you need a bit here or there (subject to a meter
        minimum or
        similar).

        On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 4:58 PM, Robert Andrews
        <i...@avantwireless.com <mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>
        <mailto:i...@avantwireless.com <mailto:i...@avantwireless.com>>>
        wrote:

            What really sucks about this deal is that they claim that
        they do
            this so rich people who can afford solar are still
        contributing to
            the cost of maintaining the grid instead of transferring
        that burden
            to poor people.   Cry me a fkn river...   They kind of
        neglect that
            they are making up more than 20% line loss from solar plants
distributing source power closer to the loads. This is a YUGE savings off losses that they don't get compensated for and goes
            straight into their pockets. Fuel savings, build savings,
        wear and
            tear savings...   They are a bunch of thieves looking in our
        pockets
            for their next golden parachute..

            On 02/07/2017 08:55 AM, Harold Bledsoe wrote:

                Apologies to Eric for hijacking his thread...

                It does suck and the logic is flawed.  Do they charge
        more for folks
                that switched to LED bulbs?  No.  Do they charge more
        for folks that
                have smaller houses, better insulation, or choose not to
        run the AC
                sometimes?  No.

                If I had more free time I'd stand up for the principle
        but at the
                moment, islanding will just have to do.  :-)  I suppose
        I could
                try to
                summon the reddit but I do still need electricity for now.

                -Hal

                On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 11:31 AM Chuck McCown
        <ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>
                <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>>
                <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>
        <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>>>> wrote:

I have 10 kW so it would be an extra $70... that sucks.
                    Yeah, I would be buying batts and inverters too.

                    *From:* Harold Bledsoe
                    *Sent:* Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:24 AM
                    *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
        <mailto:af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>>
                    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent
        battery deals?
                    When we first did it, we had to pay a $5/mo
        "administrative"
                fee for
                    having net metering.  Effective Jan 1, they charge
        an additional
                    $7/kw of installed capacity to offset the lower
        power usage.

                    I think this new charge literally effects only 1 of
        their
                    customers.  I believe their fear is that things like
        Tesla
                powerwall
                    will take off and they won't be able to afford their
        current
                    lifestyle.  ;-)
                    On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 9:32 AM Chuck McCown
        <ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>
                <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>>> wrote:

                        I pay 8.50/month.  Flat rate.
                        So you are getting a demand charge added?

                        *From:* Harold Bledsoe
                        *Sent:* Monday, February 06, 2017 5:37 PM
                        *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
        <mailto:af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>>
                        *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Particularly good recent
        battery
                deals?

                        Agreed!

                        I'm going to pull the trigger and try the forklift
                batteries.
                        Supposedly they will last 3-5x longer than
        regular deep
                cycle
                        golf cart batteries. I'll let you guys know in
        10-15 years.

                        My motivation is that my home grid tied system
        saves too
                much
power so the power company added a net meter fee of
                $7/kw/mo to
                        make up the difference.

                        Alrighty then, guess I'll take half my house off
        grid. :-)

                        Hal

                        On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:27 PM Eric Kuhnke
                        <eric.kuh...@gmail.com
        <mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com> <mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com
        <mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>>>
                wrote:

                            Anything rated in CCA (cold cranking amps)
        is not
                suitable
for cyclic solar/wind power applications. If the
                            manufacturer hasn't clearly specified Ah
        capacity in
                a table
                            at 5, 10, 20 hour rates it's not designed
        for repeated
                            discharge.


                            On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Harold Bledsoe
                            <hbledso...@gmail.com
        <mailto:hbledso...@gmail.com> <mailto:hbledso...@gmail.com
        <mailto:hbledso...@gmail.com>>>
                wrote:

Beware of deep cycle marine batteries. These
                typically
                                are not true deep cycle batteries. At
        50% depth of
                                discharge, you can expect around 300
        cycles (or
                1 year
                                if doing it daily). A true deep cycle
        battery
                will do
                                about 3x that number.

                                On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 9:00 PM Keefe John
                                <keefe...@ethoplex.com
        <mailto:keefe...@ethoplex.com>
                <mailto:keefe...@ethoplex.com
        <mailto:keefe...@ethoplex.com>>> wrote:

                                    Exide has a 105 AH battery for $81




http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-1444430136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928

<http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-1444430136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928>


<http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-1444430136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928

<http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/batteries-battery-chargers/automotive-lead-acid-batteries/exide-regng-27-12-month-nautilus-marine-deep-cycle-battery/p-1444430136307-c-9100.htm?tid=-3310133469912273928>>


                                    On February 5, 2017 4:55:55 PM CST,
        Eric Kuhnke
                                    <eric.kuh...@gmail.com
        <mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
                <mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com
        <mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>>> wrote:

                                        Found this, sunelec.com
        <http://sunelec.com>
                <http://sunelec.com> <http://sunelec.com>

                                        (big solar equipment dealer for
        off grid) is
                                        selling the 106Ah version of
        these for
                $185 a
                                        piece plus pallet shipping:




http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf

<http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf>


<http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf

<http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Store_the_Energy/energycell_re_top_terminal/energycellREtopterminal_specsheet.pdf>>

                                        Outback, as far as I know, doesn't
                actually have
                                        a battery factory. But they are
        a fairly
                large
                                        company so they are relabeling
        somebody
                else's
                                        deep cycle off grid design AGM
        battery.
                In terms
                                        of $/Wh stored the only thing
        that beats
                it is
                                        the 6V 225Ah wet cell batteries
        from Trojan.



                                        On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 6:00 AM,
        Harold
                Bledsoe
                                        <hbledso...@gmail.com
        <mailto:hbledso...@gmail.com>
                <mailto:hbledso...@gmail.com
        <mailto:hbledso...@gmail.com>>> wrote:

                                            I can across an interesting
        tip /
                option -

                                            Have you considered going
        with forklift
                                            batteries? They are flooded
        lead acid
                                            however I'm reading that
        they can
                last 3x
                                            longer than golf cart
        batteries in PV
                                            applications.




http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html

<http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html>


<http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html

<http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html>>

                                            I guess the weight is a
        downside.
                Just make
sure the whole family eats their
                Wheaties on
                                            moving day. :-)

                                            Hal

                                            On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:11
        PM Eric
                Kuhnke
                                            <eric.kuh...@gmail.com
        <mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
                <mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com
        <mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>>> wrote:

                                                Looking for a bunch of
        12V 100Ah
                AGM top
                                                terminal batteries for
        off grid PV.
                                                Wondering if anyone has
        recently
                got a
                                                particularly good deal
        for something
                                                like the Trojan T31 or
        similar.



                                            --

                                            Harold Bledsoe




                                    --
                                    Sent from my Android device with K-9
        Mail.
                Please
                                    excuse my brevity.

                                --

                                Harold Bledsoe

                        --

                        Harold Bledsoe




        --
        *Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./
        Tel: 406-449-3345 <tel:406-449-3345> | Address: 3577 Countryside
        Road, Helena, MT 59602
        forre...@imach.com <mailto:forre...@imach.com>
        <mailto:forre...@imach.com <mailto:forre...@imach.com>> |
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        <http://www.packetflux.com/>
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        <http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian>>
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--
*Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com
<mailto:forre...@imach.com> | http://www.packetflux.com
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