That is dismissive. You are dismissing the very idea that there may be more to the experience of consciousness than contemporary science can explain. As I mentioned before, Marvin Minsky (a well known self-proclaimed atheist) and I agreed that the mystery of conscious will be explained by science one day. I would restate that as it probably will be explained by science one day. Education may make you aware of the question but it does not require conditioning.. I appreciate the fact that you were honest about this because this explains it to me. I can never understand how people who understand what I am trying to get at can deny something that seems so fundamentally real. And here it is. You are in philosophical denial of your own experience. It is like psychological denial of a feeling, but in this case it is more of a philosophical thing. When someone is in denial about something you can expect a range of behaviors from him. Most of them are a kind of erratic jag when he gets close to recognizing the problem and he tries to fight it off. Incidentally, I appreciate the idea that your own feelings may condition you. I used to argue with quasi-behaviorists about that. By using our imagination and memories we can condition ourselves in all sorts of ways (both good and mal-adaptive). That is an opinion that I think is very important to AGI. And disturbing. Jim Bromer
On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 10:03 AM Matt Mahoney via AGI <agi@agi.topicbox.com> wrote: > > Science doesn't explain everything. It just tries to. It doesn't explain why > the universe exists. Philosophy does. It exists as a necessary condition for > the question to exist. > > Chalmers is mystified by consciousness like most of us are. Science can > explain why we are mystified. It explains why it seems like a hard problem. > It explains why you keep asking the wrong question. Math explains why no > program can model itself. Science explains that your brain runs a program. > > On Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 11:53 AM Nanograte Knowledge Technologies via AGI > <agi@agi.topicbox.com> wrote: >> >> Perhaps not explain then, but we could access accepted theory on a topic via >> a sound method of integration in order to construct enough of an >> understanding to at least be sure what we are talking about. Should we not >> at least be trying to do that? >> >> Maybe it's a case of no one really being curious and passionate enough to >> take the time to do the semantic work. Or is it symbolic of another problem? >> I think it's a very brave thing to talk publicly about a subject we all >> agree we seemingly know almost nothing about. Yet, we should at least try to >> do that as well. >> >> Therefore, to explain is to know? >> >> Rob >> ________________________________ >> From: Jim Bromer via AGI <agi@agi.topicbox.com> >> Sent: Saturday, 22 September 2018 6:12 PM >> To: AGI >> Subject: Re: [agi] E=mc^2 Morphism Musings... >> (Intelligence=math*consciousness^2 ?) >> >> The theory that contemporary science can explain everything requires a >> fundamental denial of history and a kind of denial about the limits of >> cotemporary science. That sort of denial of common knowledge is ill suited >> for adaptation. It will interfere with your ability to use scientific method. >> Jim Bromer >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 11:42 AM Jim Bromer <jimbro...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Qualia is what perceptions feel like and feelings are computable and they >> condition us to believe there is something magical and mysterious about it? >> This is science fiction. So science has already explained Chalmer's Hard >> Problem of Consciousness. He just got it wrong? Is that what you are saying? >> Jim Bromer >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 11:07 AM Matt Mahoney via AGI <agi@agi.topicbox.com> >> wrote: >> >> I was applying John's definition of qualia, not agreeing with it. My >> definition is qualia is what perception feels like. Perception and feelings >> are both computable. But the feelings condition you to believing there is >> something magical and mysterious about it. >> >> On Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 8:44 AM Jim Bromer via AGI <agi@agi.topicbox.com> >> wrote: >> >> There is a distinction between the qualia of human experience and the >> consciousness of what the mind is presenting. If you deny that you have the >> kind of experience that Chalmers talks about then there is a question of why >> are you denying it. So your remarks are relevant to AGI but not the way you >> are talking about them. If Matt says qualia is not real then he is saying >> that it is imaginary because I am pretty sure that he experiences things in >> ways similar to Chalmers and a lot of other people I have talked to. There >> are people who have claimed that I would not be able to create an artificial >> imagination. That is nonsense. An artificial imagination is easy. The >> complexity of doing that well is not. That does not mean however, that the >> hard problem of consciousness is just complexity. One is doable in computer >> programming, in spite of any skepticism, the other is not. >> Jim Bromer >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 10:03 AM John Rose <johnr...@polyplexic.com> wrote: >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Jim Bromer via AGI <agi@agi.topicbox.com> >> > >> > So John's attempt to create a definition of compression of something >> > complicated so that it can be communicated might be the start of the >> > development of something related to contemporary AI but the attempt to >> > claim that it defines qualia is so naïve that it is not really relevant to >> > the subject >> > of AGI. >> >> >> Jim, >> >> Engineers make a box with lines on it and label it "magic goes here". >> >> Algorithmic information theory does the same and calls it compression. >> >> The word "subjective" is essentially the same thing. >> >> AGI requires sensory input. >> >> Human beings are compression engines... each being unique. >> >> The system of human beings is a general intelligence. >> >> How do people communicate? >> >> What are the components of AGI and how will they sense and communicate? >> >> They guys that came up with the term "qualia" left it as a mystery so it's >> getting hijacked This is extremely common with scientific terminology. >> >> BTW I'm not trying to define it universally just as something >> computationally useful in AGI R&D... but it's starting to seem like it's >> central. Thus IIT? Tononi or Tononi-like? Not sure... have to do some >> reading but prefer coming up with something simple and practical without >> getting too ethereal. TGD consciousness is pretty interesting though and a >> good exercise in some mind-bending reading. >> >> John >> > > Artificial General Intelligence List / AGI / see discussions + participants + > delivery options Permalink ------------------------------------------ Artificial General Intelligence List: AGI Permalink: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/T9c94dabb0436859d-Mb35601597d2187e985a020d7 Delivery options: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription
