We must define a process in which language can emerge from incrementally complex encoding of analog sensory input. Anything short of that is a cargo-cult AI.
On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 2:53 PM Jim Bromer <jimbro...@gmail.com> wrote: > I guess I should add that I think strong AI may start out with simple > 'principles/ or methods but it might start out with very complicated > principles and methods as well. I do not think an attitude that animal > physiology -must- be simple is very realistic. However, I do not see any > good evidence to assume that simple methods cannot suffice as a starting > point for stronger AI. On the other hand, I think there is lots of evidence > that complicatedness is a major problem for stronger AI > So when I argue that the study of natural language processing is a major > move toward strong AI I am talking about AI that can adapt to special > languages that are used frequently amongst a group, just as we have our own > language to talk about what we are talking about. The average person would > have no idea what I am talking about, but most of you can make some sense > out of what I am saying (whether you agree with it or not.) If a natural > language processing programming can adapt to novel usages of terms and > sentences, then it can learn, and I would say that it would also need to > have overcome the present day hurdles of complicatedness in some way. > I think there are undiscovered mathematical methods that will one day take > a giant step over the present-day hurdle of complicatedness. > Jim Bromer > > > On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 10:01 AM Jim Bromer <jimbro...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> This argument from Robert Levy is not quite right, in my opinion. While >> most animals do not have a sophisticated language, it can be seen that >> animals are capable of learning about routine events and attach meaning to >> linguistic cues (or other kinds of sensory events like bells) to those >> routine generalizations. That would constitute a language, and it >> exemplifies the contention that to collect insight about (the >> generalizations of a kind) of event constitutes a symbolization of a >> precursor of the event. The knowledge that a precursor might represent an >> event thereby demonstrates that the animal has a basic 'linguistic' >> ability. And the idea that an animal can associate a learned signal with a >> possible event (like dinner) shows that the animal has the power of a >> 'linguistic' imagination. >> Could designing a robot that has to learn to walk be the breakthrough in >> strong AI according to Robert's thesis? Because there are some animals that >> can learn to walk within a few hours of being born A foal is an example. >> Foals have spindly legs that splay a little with the first steps but they >> are not mechanically designed for stability like a stationary landing pod >> on a spacecraft. The idea that designing an artificial process that is >> simple for some animals might represent a breakthrough in AI does not make >> sense for one reason. It does not take complexity into account. (I am >> speaking of complicatedness of course.) It is very easy to design AI >> programs that can operate within extremely simple domain data-spaces The >> problem is dealing with extremely complicated domain environments where >> complexity is a major hurdle. >> It is a mistake to think that language research in AI is not a pathway >> towards AGI. However it is a mistake to think that linguistic abilities are >> themselves strong AI just as it is a mistake to think that designing a >> robot that can learn to walk is strong AI. Both of these challenges can be >> met by simplifying the environmental domain sufficiently. The challenge is >> finding a way that true learning can take place when confronted with >> thousands of complications. >> Jim Bromer >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 7:24 PM Robert Levy <r.p.l...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> It's very easy to show that "AGI should not be designed for NL". Just >>> ask yourself the following questions: >>> >>> 1. How many species demonstrate impressive leverage of intentional >>> behaviors? (My answer would be: all of them, though some more than others) >>> 2. How many species have language (My answer: only one) >>> 3. How biologically different do you think humans are from apes? (My >>> answer: not much different, the whole human niche is probably a consequence >>> one adaptive difference: cooperative communication by scaffolding of joint >>> attention) >>> >>> I'm with Rodney Brooks on this, the hard part of AGI has nothing to do >>> with language, it has to do with agents being highly optimized to control >>> an environment in terms of ecological information supporting >>> perception/action. Just as uplifting apes will likely require only minor >>> changes, uplifting animaloid AGI will likely require only minor changes. >>> Even then we still haven't explicitly cared about language, we've cared >>> about cooperation by means of joint attention, which can be made use of >>> culturally develop language. >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 12:05 PM Boris Kazachenko <cogno...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I would be more than happy to pay: >>>> https://github.com/boris-kz/CogAlg/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md , but I >>>> don't think you are working on AGI. >>>> No one here does, this is a NLP chatbot crowd. Anyone who thinks that >>>> AGI should be designed for NL data as a primary input is profoundly >>>> confused. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 7:04 AM Stefan Reich via AGI < >>>> agi@agi.topicbox.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Not from you guys necessarily... :o) But I thought I'd let you know. >>>>> >>>>> Pitch: >>>>> https://www.meetup.com/Artificial-Intelligence-Meetup/messages/boards/thread/52050719 >>>>> >>>>> Let's see if it can be done... funny how some hurdles always seem to >>>>> appear when you're about to finish something good. Something about the >>>>> duality of the universe I guess. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Stefan Reich >>>>> BotCompany.de // Java-based operating systems >>>>> >>>> *Artificial General Intelligence List <https://agi.topicbox.com/latest>* > / AGI / see discussions <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi> + > participants <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/members> + delivery > options <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription> Permalink > <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/T191003acdcbf5ef8-Mec0c783215cf7b46823bd1fd> > ------------------------------------------ Artificial General Intelligence List: AGI Permalink: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/T191003acdcbf5ef8-M8d5654b1e3c7a33c6033c805 Delivery options: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription
