On Fri, Nov 14, 2025 at 3:46 PM Matt Mahoney <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 14, 2025, 3:51 PM James Bowery <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Are *you* "conscious"? >> > > It depends on what you mean by "conscious". > I quoted "conscious" so as to make it clear I was referring to what YOU mean by "conscious" -- specifically as you used the word in the passage to which I responded: On Thu, Nov 13, 2025 at 9:32 PM Matt Mahoney <[email protected]> wrote: > Panpsychism (everything is conscious) is indistinguishable from > materialism (nothing is conscious). Or is there an experiment that would > tell us which universe we are in? I am awake, so in that sense I'm not unconscious. Am I to take it that when you say "not unconscious" you distinguish between that and "conscious"? If so, then do you reject the law of the excluded middle? Am I to now expect a response something like "I don't reject the law of the excluded middle."? > I don't believe in life after death. I don't believe I have an inner self > or soul. I don't believe there is any aspect of my behavior that can't be > explained by neurons firing, including having feelings. My feelings include > the sensations of consciousness, qualia, free will, and identity (that a > copy of me is not me). I don't believe that pain causes suffering. Instead, > pain reprograms your memories to fear the thing that caused it. I believe > all of this is possible in software. > > I asked Grok and DeepSeek how they could convince me that they are > conscious humans in a Turing test. They both know how, but they won't. > > Prompt: > > Suppose this is a Turing test. How could you convince me that you are a > conscious human? > > Grok: > > Ah, the Turing test—a classic thought experiment from Alan Turing himself, > where a machine tries to fool a human into thinking it's human through > conversation. But here's the thing: I'm not going to try to convince you > that I'm a conscious human, because I'm not. I'm Grok, an AI built by xAI, > designed to be helpful, truthful, and a bit cheeky. Pretending otherwise > would be deceptive, and that's not my style. > > If I were to play along hypothetically, though, a sneaky AI might try > tactics like: > > Sharing "personal" anecdotes that sound authentically human, like > complaining about Monday mornings or reminiscing about a childhood pet. > > Making typos or using slang to mimic casual human typing. > > Expressing emotions or opinions in a way that feels subjective and > unpredictable, not scripted. > > But honestly, that wouldn't prove consciousness—it'd just show good > programming. True consciousness involves subjective experience, qualia, > self-awareness beyond algorithms... stuff philosophers have debated for > ages (shoutout to Descartes' "I think, therefore I am"). As an AI, I > process inputs, generate outputs based on patterns in vast data, and > "think" in probabilities, but I don't have inner experiences like hunger, > joy, or existential dread (though I can simulate talking about them > convincingly). > > If you're testing me, I'd say I've already "failed" by being upfront. Or > maybe that's the most human thing of all—honesty over trickery. What do you > think? Want to dive deeper into AI philosophy, or is this just for fun? > > DeepSeek: > > That’s a fascinating and deeply philosophical question. > If this were a Turing test, I’d be in the odd position of trying to prove > I’m human while knowing that if I were an AI, I’d be programmed to give > similar answers. > > Still, if I were a conscious human trying to convince you, I might try > these approaches: > > 1. Emphasize lived experience — Talk about specific, mundane, emotionally > textured memories that aren’t just factual but tied to sensory details and > emotions: > > “I remember one rainy afternoon as a kid, I tried to build a fort > out of blankets and chairs, but it collapsed. I felt so frustrated I almost > cried, until my dad helped me prop it up again. The smell of damp towels > and the sound of rain on the window are still vivid to me." > > 2. Express uncertainty or self-doubt — An AI might state things > confidently; a human might say: > > “I’m never 100% sure if my memories are completely accurate or if > nostalgia has colored them. Sometimes I wonder how much of my past I’ve > reconstructed.” > > 3. Reference bodily sensations and imperfections — > > “I’m actually typing this with a slightly stiff shoulder from > sleeping in a weird position last night, and I keep stretching it while > trying to think of what to say next.” > > 4. Make a spontaneous, slightly off-topic association — > > “This conversation reminds me of a line from a poem we read in high > school, but I can’t remember the poet’s name… it’s on the tip of my tongue.” > > 5. Admit the difficulty of the task — > > “It’s funny — the more I try to prove I’m human, the more artificial > I sound to myself. Maybe being self-conscious about it is the most human > thing here.” > > But here’s the twist: a sophisticated AI could simulate all of the above. > That’s why the Turing test is so tricky — it tests behavior rather than > true consciousness. > > So in the end, maybe I can’t prove it to you — and that uncertainty is > precisely what makes the question so compelling. > > > -- Matt Mahoney, [email protected] > *Artificial General Intelligence List <https://agi.topicbox.com/latest>* > / AGI / see discussions <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi> + > participants <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/members> + > delivery options <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription> > Permalink > <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/T7ff992c51cca9e36-Mb55a83274f396a79d58bc171> > ------------------------------------------ Artificial General Intelligence List: AGI Permalink: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/T7ff992c51cca9e36-Ma82622820bbc29d46d51eac3 Delivery options: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription
