hm, sounds interesting, but I don't get it either. If entropy increases, the uncertainty of the state increases and information (about the state) decreases as you say, but why would the past then contain more information about the future than vice versa? Let X be the past, Y be the future, then as mutual information is symmetric: H(X) - H(X|Y) = H(Y) - H(Y|X) now H(Y) > H(X) because of entropy increase. then H(Y|X) > H(X|Y) and the future should be more uncertain given the past than vice versa. Where did this go wrong?
On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 2:13 AM, Ben Goertzel via AGI <[email protected]> wrote: > Information is negentropy, so increase of entropy implies decrease of > information... > > Acquiring information about a system is associated with entropy > production... > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Aaron Nitzkin <[email protected]> wrote: > > Sorry, I must be a little confused -- probably thinking from the wrong > > perspective . . . I would think that there is more information > > in the future about the past than vice versa, because we know more about > the > > past than we do about the future, and also, doesn't > > increase in entropy imply increase in information (because it requries > more > > information to specify the configuration of a system > > with higher entropy than the same system with lower entropy?) > > > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 8:27 AM, Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> In the early part of the paper, the author clarifies that while he > >> assumes "temporal precedence as an aspect of causality" for > >> simplicity, actually his approach would work with any other systematic > >> way of assigning asymmetric directions to relationships between events > >> > >> I have been thinking a lot about how to infer causality from > >> non-time-series data (e.g. categorial gene expression data), and this > >> is a case where looking at some other sort of asymmetry than temporal > >> precedence (but that may generally correlated with temporal > >> precedence) seems to make sense. E.g. I've been thinking about > >> looking at informational asymmetry: If one has P(A = a | B=b), one can > >> look at whether the distribution for A gives more information about > >> the distribution for B, or vice versa. This informational asymmetry > >> can be used similarly to temporal asymmetry in defining causality. > >> Furthermore, it on the average is going to correlate with temporal > >> asymmetry, because the past tends to contain more information about > >> the future than vice versa (due to entropy increase, roughly > >> speaking... but there's more story here...) > >> > >> -- Ben > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 5:34 AM, Michael van der Gulik > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > "Chapter 1. Quantum mechanics... " > >> > > >> > It's a nice article; I'll add it to my reading list. Prediction > involves > >> > working out what causes what, so it's pretty fundamental. > >> > > >> > I have a question. Causation in my mind seems to always involve time, > >> > and I > >> > suspect it's impossible to have causation without including timing. > >> > So... > >> > > >> > Is it possible for a cause to happen at exactly the same moment as its > >> > effect? > >> > > >> > Is it possible for a cause to happen after its effect? > >> > > >> > One instance I'm trying to get my head around is when an intelligence > >> > anticipates a cause (which is an event in the future), which results > in > >> > the > >> > intelligence acting such that the effect occurs before the cause. > >> > Perhaps > >> > the anticipation itself is the causal event. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > Michael. > >> > > >> > > >> > On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 7:17 AM, Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> I just happened across this 2011 paper on the probabilistic > foundation > >> >> of causality, > >> >> > >> >> http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/9729/1/Website_Version_2.pdf > >> >> > >> >> which seems to carefully clarify a bunch of issues that remain > >> >> dangling in prior discussions of the topic > >> >> > >> >> It seems to give a good characterization of what it means for "P to > >> >> appear to cause Q, based on the knowledge-base of observer O" > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> Ben Goertzel, PhD > >> >> http://goertzel.org > >> >> > >> >> "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one > >> >> persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all > >> >> progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> >> Groups > >> >> "Artificial General Intelligence" group. > >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send > >> >> an > >> >> email to > [email protected]. > >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > http://gulik.pbwiki.com/ > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups > >> > "Artificial General Intelligence" group. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > >> > an > >> > email to [email protected] > . > >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Ben Goertzel, PhD > >> http://goertzel.org > >> > >> "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one > >> persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all > >> progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "opencog" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > >> email to [email protected]. > >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/opencog. > >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > > > -- > Ben Goertzel, PhD > http://goertzel.org > > "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one > persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all > progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw > > > ------------------------------------------- > AGI > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10872673-8f99760d > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
