Hmm, maybe you're right , maybe I was traveling backwards in time when I wrote that ...
(More later) On Tuesday, November 25, 2014, martin biehl <[email protected]> wrote: > hm, sounds interesting, but I don't get it either. If entropy increases, > the uncertainty of the state increases and information (about the state) > decreases as you say, but why would the past then contain more information > about the future than vice versa? Let X be the past, Y be the future, then > as mutual information is symmetric: > H(X) - H(X|Y) = H(Y) - H(Y|X) > now H(Y) > H(X) because of entropy increase. > then > H(Y|X) > H(X|Y) > and the future should be more uncertain given the past than vice versa. > Where did this go wrong? > > > On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 2:13 AM, Ben Goertzel via AGI <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: > >> Information is negentropy, so increase of entropy implies decrease of >> information... >> >> Acquiring information about a system is associated with entropy >> production... >> >> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Aaron Nitzkin <[email protected] >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: >> > Sorry, I must be a little confused -- probably thinking from the wrong >> > perspective . . . I would think that there is more information >> > in the future about the past than vice versa, because we know more >> about the >> > past than we do about the future, and also, doesn't >> > increase in entropy imply increase in information (because it requries >> more >> > information to specify the configuration of a system >> > with higher entropy than the same system with lower entropy?) >> > >> > On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 8:27 AM, Ben Goertzel <[email protected] >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: >> >> >> >> In the early part of the paper, the author clarifies that while he >> >> assumes "temporal precedence as an aspect of causality" for >> >> simplicity, actually his approach would work with any other systematic >> >> way of assigning asymmetric directions to relationships between events >> >> >> >> I have been thinking a lot about how to infer causality from >> >> non-time-series data (e.g. categorial gene expression data), and this >> >> is a case where looking at some other sort of asymmetry than temporal >> >> precedence (but that may generally correlated with temporal >> >> precedence) seems to make sense. E.g. I've been thinking about >> >> looking at informational asymmetry: If one has P(A = a | B=b), one can >> >> look at whether the distribution for A gives more information about >> >> the distribution for B, or vice versa. This informational asymmetry >> >> can be used similarly to temporal asymmetry in defining causality. >> >> Furthermore, it on the average is going to correlate with temporal >> >> asymmetry, because the past tends to contain more information about >> >> the future than vice versa (due to entropy increase, roughly >> >> speaking... but there's more story here...) >> >> >> >> -- Ben >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 5:34 AM, Michael van der Gulik >> >> <[email protected] <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> >> wrote: >> >> > "Chapter 1. Quantum mechanics... " >> >> > >> >> > It's a nice article; I'll add it to my reading list. Prediction >> involves >> >> > working out what causes what, so it's pretty fundamental. >> >> > >> >> > I have a question. Causation in my mind seems to always involve time, >> >> > and I >> >> > suspect it's impossible to have causation without including timing. >> >> > So... >> >> > >> >> > Is it possible for a cause to happen at exactly the same moment as >> its >> >> > effect? >> >> > >> >> > Is it possible for a cause to happen after its effect? >> >> > >> >> > One instance I'm trying to get my head around is when an intelligence >> >> > anticipates a cause (which is an event in the future), which results >> in >> >> > the >> >> > intelligence acting such that the effect occurs before the cause. >> >> > Perhaps >> >> > the anticipation itself is the causal event. >> >> > >> >> > Regards, >> >> > Michael. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 7:17 AM, Ben Goertzel <[email protected] >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I just happened across this 2011 paper on the probabilistic >> foundation >> >> >> of causality, >> >> >> >> >> >> http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/9729/1/Website_Version_2.pdf >> >> >> >> >> >> which seems to carefully clarify a bunch of issues that remain >> >> >> dangling in prior discussions of the topic >> >> >> >> >> >> It seems to give a good characterization of what it means for "P to >> >> >> appear to cause Q, based on the knowledge-base of observer O" >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> Ben Goertzel, PhD >> >> >> http://goertzel.org >> >> >> >> >> >> "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable >> one >> >> >> persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all >> >> >> progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> >> Groups >> >> >> "Artificial General Intelligence" group. >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send >> >> >> an >> >> >> email to >> [email protected] >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','artificial-general-intelligence%[email protected]');> >> . >> >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > http://gulik.pbwiki.com/ >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> > Groups >> >> > "Artificial General Intelligence" group. >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send >> >> > an >> >> > email to >> [email protected] >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','artificial-general-intelligence%[email protected]');> >> . >> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Ben Goertzel, PhD >> >> http://goertzel.org >> >> >> >> "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one >> >> persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all >> >> progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> >> "opencog" group. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> an >> >> email to [email protected] >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','opencog%[email protected]');>. >> >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>. >> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/opencog. >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Ben Goertzel, PhD >> http://goertzel.org >> >> "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one >> persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all >> progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> AGI >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> RSS Feed: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10872673-8f99760d >> Modify Your Subscription: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> > > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD http://goertzel.org "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
