Ben, Not one metaphor below works.
You have in effect accepted the task of providing a philosophy and explanation of your AGI and your logic - you have produced a great deal of such stuff (quite correctly). But none of it includes the slightest explanation of how logic can produce AGI - or, to use your favourite metaphor, how the plane will take off. I don't know the history of the Wright brothers, but I'll confidently bet that they had at least an idea or two, from early on, of how and why their contraption would fly. They didn't entirely "wing it." Mike, I understand that "my task" is to create an AGI system, and I'm working on it ... The fact that my in-development, partial AGI system has not yet demonstrated advanced intelligence, does not imply that it will not do so once completed. No, my AGI system has not yet discovered surprising metaphors, because it is still at an early stage of development. So what. An airplane not yet fully constructed doesn't fly anywhere either. My point was that asking whether a certain type of software system has ever produced a surprising metaphor -- is not a very interesting question. I am quite sure that the chatbot MegaHAL has produced many surprising metaphors. For instance, see his utterances on http://megahal.alioth.debian.org/Classic.html including AMAZING GRACE, HOW SWEET THE SOUND OF ONE OR MORE NUMBERS REPRESENTED IN DIGITAL FORM. HAL IS A CRAZY COW WHEN IT SINGS HALLELUJA LIFE'S BUT A GREEN DUCK WITH SOY SAUCE CHESS IS A FUN SPORT, WHEN PLAYED WITH SHOT GUNS. KEN KESEY WROTE "ONE FLEW OVER THE CENTER OF THE CUCKOLDED LIZARD MAN, WHO STRAYED FROM HIS MISTAKES WHEN HE IS A MADEUP WORD. COWS FLY LIKE CLOUDS BUT THEY ARE NEVER COMPLETELY SUCCESSFUL JESUS IS THE BEST RADIO PRODUCER IN THE BEANS. MegaHAL is kinda creative and poetic, and he does generate some funky and surprising metaphors ... but alas he is not an AGI... -- Ben On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 11:30 PM, Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Ben: Mike: (And can you provide an example of a single surprising metaphor or analogy that have ever been derived logically? Jiri said he could - but didn't.) It's a bad question -- one could derive surprising metaphors or analogies by random search, and that wouldn't prove anything useful about the AGI potential of random search ... Ben, When has random search produced surprising metaphors ? And how did or would the system know that it has been done - how would it be able to distinguish valid from invalid metaphors, and surprising from unsurprising ones? You have just put forward, I suggest, a hypothetical/false and evasive argument. Your task, as Pei's, is surely to provide an argument, or some evidence, as to how the logical system you use can lead in any way to the crossing/ connection of previously uncrossed/unconnected domains - the central task and problem of AGI. Surprising metaphors and analogies are just two examples of such crossing of domains. (And jokes another) You have effectively tried to argue via the (I suggest) false random search example, that it is impossible to provide such an argument.. The truth is - I'm betting - that, you're just making excuses - neither you nor Pei have ever actually proposed an argument as to how logic can solve the problem of AGI and, after all these years, simply don't have one. If you have or do, please link me. P.S. The counterargument is v. simple. A connection of domains via metaphor/analogy or any other means is surprising if it does not follow from any known premises and rules. There were no known premises and rules for Matt to connect altimeters and the measurement of progress, or, if you remember my visual pun, for connecting the head of a clarinet and the head of a swan. Logic depends on inferences from known premises and rules. Logic is therefore quite incapable of - and has always been expressly prohibited from - making surprising connections (and therefore solving AGI). It is dedicated to the maintenance not the breaking of rules. "As for Logic, its syllogisms and the majority of its other precepts are of avail rather in the communication of what we already know, or... even in speaking without judgment of things of which we are ignorant, than in the investigation of the unknown." Descartes If I and Descartes are right - and there is every reason to think so, (incl. the odd million, logically inexplicable metaphors not to mention many millions of logically inexplicable jokes) - you surely should be addressing this matter urgently, not evading it.. P.P.S. You should also bear in mind that a vast amount of jokes (which involve the surprising crossing of domains) explicitly depend on ILLOGICALITY. Take the classic Jewish joke about the woman who, told that her friend's son has the psychological problem of an Oedipus Complex, says: "Oedipus Schmoedipus, what does it matter as long as he loves his mother?" And your logical explanation is..? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must be first overcome " - Dr Samuel Johnson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=114414975-3c8e69 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
