On whether NLU is AGI-complete, it really depends on the particulars of the definition of NLU ... but according to my own working definition of NLU I agree that it isn't ...
However, as I stated before, within any vaguely mammalian-brain-like AI architecture, I do suspect that achieving NLU is AGI-complete... -- Ben G On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Dr. Matthias Heger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > I do not agree. Understanding a domain does not imply the ability to > solve problems in that domain. > > And the ability to solve problems in a domain even does not imply to have a > generally a deeper understanding of that domain. > > > > Once again my example of the problem to find a path within a graph from > node A to node B: > > Program p1 (= problem solver) can find a path. > > Program p2 (= expert in understanding) can verify and analyze paths. > > > > For instance, p2 could be able compare the length of the path for the first > half of the nodes with the length of the path for the second half of the > nodes. It is not necessary that P1 can do this as well. > > > > P2 can not necessarily find a path. But p1 can not necessarily analyze its > solution. > > > > Understanding and problem solving are different things which might have a > common subset but it is wrong that the one implies the other one or vice > versa. > > > > And that's the main reason why natural language understanding is not > necessarily AGI-complete. > > > > -Matthias > > > > > > Terren Suydam [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > Once again, there is a depth to understanding - it's not simply a binary > proposition. > > Don't you agree that a grandmaster understands chess better than you do, > even if his moves are understandable to you in hindsight? > > If I'm not good at math, I might not be able to solve y=3x+4 for x, but I > might understand that y equals 3 times x plus four. My understanding is > superficial compared to someone who can solve for x. > > Finally, don't you agree that understanding natural language requires > solving problems? If not, how would you account for an AI's ability to > understand novel metaphor? > > Terren > > --- On *Thu, 10/23/08, Dr. Matthias Heger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>* wrote: > > From: Dr. Matthias Heger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [agi] Understanding and Problem Solving > To: agi@v2.listbox.com > Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 1:47 AM > > Terren Suydam wrote: > > >>> > > Understanding goes far beyond mere knowledge - understanding *is* the > ability to solve problems. One's understanding of a situation or problem is > only as deep as one's (theoretical) ability to act in such a way as to > achieve a desired outcome. > > <<< > > > > I disagree. A grandmaster of chess can explain his decisions and I will > understand them. Einstein could explain his theory to other physicist(at > least a subset) and they could understand it. > > > > I can read a proof in mathematics and I will understand it – because I only > have to understand (= check) every step of the proof. > > > > Problem solving is much much more than only understanding. > > Problem solving is the ability to **create** a sequence of actions to > change a system's state from A to a desired state B. > > > > For example: Problem Find a path from A to B within a graph. > > An algorithm which can check a solution and can answer details about the > solution is not necessarily able to find a solution. > > > > -Matthias > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/>| > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > > <http://www.listbox.com> > > > ------------------------------ > > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/>| > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > > <http://www.listbox.com> > > > ------------------------------ > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=117534816-b15a34 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
