ALOT OF TALK FOR NOTHING!!!! Harry chose XUL because that was the result of his research and you should respect that, he didn't just choose it like that because he wanted to use it!!! Also, Harry, you might have written a doc listing all the alternatives, the pros and cons, the limitations of each, etc.. so people can stop whining. Multiplatform is for sure never forgotten, we never said "Linux" either, right ? it's simply because it is not written anywhere as it is understood everywhere... but J, you might be right, just to avoid any ambiguities in the specs, it should be clearly stated.. please make sure libmsn is also written using multiplatform tools and has no os-specific dependencies... Just to be clear once and for all, WE WILL NOT DROP TCL/TK!!!!!!! The whole aMSN2 core will be Tcl, the only C part will be the PROTOCOL!!!! Now, you people who are whining about dropping Tcl, how much work did you do on the protocol, huh ? how much? I think that apart from Sander, nobody ever touched the protocol part of amsn, everyone is working on different features like autoupdate, autoaway messages, the bug report system, etc... those will be in amsn2 and they will be Tcl code, not C, because they are not protocol stuff.. so why talk about droping tcl ? and btw, you have a problem about using XUL instead of Tk ??? Damn it, I KNOW, noone wants to put a lot of work into the garbage, but hey, you have a problem here, aMSN was growing, growing fast, becoming great, but now it stalled, now it became horrible, because we reached the limit, we can't do much more anymore.. how do you want to have background chat windows.. how can you explain the slowliness of Tk contact-list drawing ? how can you fix the smileys 100% CPU problems ? all that are a problem of using Tk, and we already have a lot of C modules, webcamsn, tkcximage, look at all those extensions we have in utils/... you don't care about that huh ? well we already have to compile stuff, we already have C code, so what's the matter if we move the protocol into C code too ? You talk about chameleon, desktop integration, what are those ? huh ? those are, like Harry said, they are WORKAROUNDS because Tk is crap, is ugly! and we can't do shit about that and we all know that.. Tk makes your dual core look like a pentium II and Chameleon makes your dual core look like a 386... We should definitely drop Tk.. now I have a question for you, WHY ??? why in the world did I suggest XML2GUI ? Why didn't I say "let's rewrite all with gtk" ? why ? why did I specify that I wanted an XML GUI ? and what is XML2GUI in the first place ? no need to search in the ML archives, I'll answer you, I proposed that so people can CHOOSE their toolkit!!! I said, if we write in Tk, it will be a mess to wrap it into gtk, if we write in gtk, we looe tk.. so let's write it in a completly different language, an abstraction of the toolkit.. XML, we write in XML, then we create 3 DIFFERENT INTERPRETERS.. that IS XML2GUI!!! XML2GUI is a Tcl/Tk module that creates Tk dialogs from an XML file... OR, it is a C module using GTK to create the dialogs... OR it is a C/C++ module using QT to create the dialogs.. so if you want, users could choose their toolkit! so now tell me, we have XUL, we can use it and we're happy.. if you guys want to use Tk, then DO IT!!! it's an XML file for christ's sake! you have an xml parser for Tk right ? and what about the XHTML code? well you have Tkhtml, right ? so use both of these to create your own XML2GUI Tk module! for now, we have an already working XUL parser which will SAVE US TIME! Now, I said all (almost.. I think) I had to say about that, but let me just add that all this whining really annoyed me... if you still have a problem with it, then meet on IRC and fix your problems without spamming the list....
KaKaRoTo On Mon, Jul 17, 2006 at 05:20:16PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On 7/17/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > That is simply up to you to decide! > > > > I think it would be great to have something nice based on tkhtml in > > those aMSN versions after 0.96 that will still be on the current > > codebase. > I especially think it would be nice to get a "sexy" looking amsn out > soon, if only to attract a wide user base (especially younger users.) > > Also, you might be able to use some of the HTML in aMSN2, but > > that depends on the way the tkhtml thing works exactly (i.e. does it > > work with a html file or does it generate the HTML) > Tkhtml reads in html and renders it, so one can read in a template e.g > of a chatwindow and then add text to it when messages arrive (a very > simple description) > ; Also, in aMSN2 all > > should be XHTML strict, because it won't go together with XUL otherwise. > That's not a problem at all. > > Tom > > > > Citeren "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > > Okay, so tk is being dropped, I guess that billiob phil and my work > > > with tkhtml will be used for amsn1 then? > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > On 7/17/06, Harry Vennik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> Hi, > > >> > > >> Thanks Youness for explaining the idea. It was absolutely not true > > >> that Tcl/Tk > > >> would be dropped completely. Much more will be in C than currently in > > >> aMSN2, > > >> but still most of the logic will be in Tcl, only Tk will be dropped! And > > >> the > > >> logic will be implemented as a kind of 'core plugins'. (Phil, I must > > >> admit, > > >> the way I named those is not right, in the document is seems like those > > >> will > > >> be optional, but that is not what I meant. Needs to change in the next > > >> version.) Talking about languages, I will also clarify why I mentioned > > >> JavaScript. We will probably need it to implement some basic GUI > > >> behavior and > > >> to link the XUL-based GUI with the C code behind, but my intend is to > > >> keep > > >> the use of JavaScript as minimal as possible, and not use it al all if > > >> possible. In any case, no serious piece of logic will be implemented in > > >> JavaScript. > > >> > > >> About glib and C++... I am more of a C++ hater than a glib lover. In my > > >> opinion C++ should never have been created. Many people seem to like it, > > >> but > > >> I don't see why. The way the OO principles are implemented in C++ is not > > >> usable for me (I learned about OO with VisualBasic and Java in the first > > >> place, then glib is close than C++, even though you need to code every > > >> thing > > >> yourself in glib, and C++ will do some for you, the principles followed > > >> by > > >> glib do match those of real OO as in Java better than C++ does). In fact > > >> Objective-C is still the best one around, but it is only supported well > > >> on > > >> Mac, support on Linux is limited, and Objective-C on Windows might not be > > >> possible at all. So for that reason it would not be a good choice for us. > > >> > > >> About my document missing much information... that is completely true. > > >> We'll > > >> need to develop that document. I put it in the Wiki too, and I will > > >> update it > > >> there regularly to reflect things discussed here, and once it clearly > > >> takes > > >> some direction, I will issue a new draft that contains the changes, > > >> and maybe > > >> new ideas emerging from that. > > >> > > >> About the Wiki page listing the modules and who will work on it, it is > > >> there > > >> indeed, but needs change. The final list of modules is different, and > > >> people > > >> will probably shuffle around a bit. For example I am at 'Telepathy to GUI > > >> Layer', but moved to XML2GUI in the meantime, finally dropping most of > > >> that > > >> in favor of an existing solution, but cannot go back, because there will > > >> probably not exactly be any 'Telepathy to GUI Layer'. > > >> > > >> What we'll probably have: > > >> - The GUI in XUL > > >> - D-BUS for Tcl > > >> - libamsn2_ui > > >> - libamsn2_tcl > > >> - libmsn > > >> - The 'core plugins' that will glue everything together. > > >> > > >> In the beginning anyone only able to code TCL can stay on aMSN1. > > >> They can join > > >> aMSN2 later, when some non-TCL parts they will need get near the alpha > > >> status. (Don't say this is unfair. aMSN 1.0 needs to get out too, and TCL > > >> coding for aMSN2 simply cannot be done in the first stage.) > > >> > > >> Harry > > >> > > >> Op maandag 17 juli 2006 01:00, schreef Youness Alaoui: > > >> > ok... I think we'd better discuss this on IRC, it will be a lot > > >> > easier.. > > >> > unfortunately, as I said already many times I can't do much with my PC > > >> > right now... > > >> > I think Phil is wrong about glib.. I do understand that OO emulation is > > >> > not as good as real OO with C++ but problem with C++ is as you know, > > >> > the > > >> > libstdc++ ABI changing every couple of weeks... so it's hard to package > > >> > something... > > >> > if it's not for that, I would say C++ all the way!!! > > >> > C is also prefered to C++ because of the linux commuity emotions where > > >> > everything everywhere is C and we don't want to switch to something > > >> > else > > >> > (tell someone to compile a java version of the linux kernel, he'll > > >> > laugh/spit at you...) > > >> > about tcl/tk, we didn't say we'll drop it, on the contrary, it will be > > >> > our base... you need to see amsn2 as a 3 module project > > >> > the protocol - the logic - the graphics > > >> > the protocol will be farsight+telepathy+libmsn > > >> > the graphics will be XML files, XUL, etc... > > >> > the logic will be Tcl... > > >> > the logic will take care of saying "ohh, the protocol said I have a new > > >> > contact in my allow list, ok, then update the allow list data and do > > >> > whatever has to be done for that event"... > > >> > we'll also store in Tcl snit objects the different data types, the > > >> > contact list, the users, the groups, etc... > > >> > I don't know how XULRunner works but I think I saw a 'javascript' word > > >> > in your doc... what's that ? are you serious about using damn JS in > > >> > amsn2 ? I would say definitely NO! use Tcl if any scripting is > > >> > required! > > >> > > > >> > Didn't we have a page on the wiki that described all modules and which > > >> > team member wanted to work on which module? it is very abstracted, > > >> > Harry's document aims to go more technical, but I think it lacks many > > >> > info... remember the mail I sent with details about the snit objects to > > >> > use ? the interactoin ? the directory structures, etc... ? read it and > > >> > use it... we need to join every mail on the subject. > > >> > Tcl should be the core of amsn2, this is what amsn2 is really about!!! > > >> > it's not because someone uses libmsn with telepathy to create his own > > >> > client that it's the same as amsn2.. the protocol is one thing and has > > >> > nothing to do with the client... the GUI is the same, it is our front > > >> > end, but a nice button is nothing if you click on it and nothing > > >> > happens... those events will be Tcl, so the aMSN spirit is not dead and > > >> > noone has to leave the team! > > >> > > > >> > KKRT > > >> > > > >> > On Sun, Jul 16, 2006 at 11:41:41PM +0100, > > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >> > > I agree as regards dropping tcl/tk - I cant program in anything else > > >> > > except PHP lol so i wouldnt be able to contribute if we switched > > >> > > langs > > >> > > (sorry Harry havent read the doc yet, just going on what Phil said, > > >> > > will read later) > > >> > > > > >> > > Tom > > >> > > > > >> > > On 7/16/06, Philippe Valembois - Phil > > >> > > > > >> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> > > > Ouch ! > > >> > > > Hi, > > >> > > > between my so beautiful week end and my first day of work > > >> > > > tomorrow, I > > >> > > > take the time to read mails and read yours too ;) > > >> > > > And the first point where I disagree is : > > >> > > > You want to drop Tcl/Tk ! > > >> > > > And it's a huge point ! Because if you drop it you will have many > > >> > > > devels who will leave the project because they don't know C or > > >> > > > C++... > > >> > > > Tcl/Tk would be the only common point between aMSN and aMSN2 so if > > >> > > > you > > >> > > > remove it why call it aMSN2 ? (not the same devels, not the same > > >> > > > languages, no incompatibility ) The only common point I can > > >> find is the > > >> > > > aim to have the better MSN client the Earth will ever have ! > > >> > > > KaKaRoTo you said I didn't created the amsn2 tree... But if I > > >> > > > created > > >> > > > it I would have put in it our work with TkHtml... But where will be > > >> > > > TkHtml in this design ? It will be a GUI in TCL... But what said > > >> > > > Harry > > >> > > > ? "Usage of Tk for plugin UI components will however be strongly > > >> > > > discouraged." so it will be a sort of "Do you I say but not what I > > >> > > > do" > > >> > > > very strange... > > >> > > > In addition, you seem to be very tied with GLib and don't want to > > >> > > > use > > >> > > > C++... Why ? Why use some emulation of C++ in C ? If you want to > > >> > > > use > > >> > > > classes so we should use C++... Else I could advise you to code our > > >> > > > classes in assembly :p Well, in fact, I totally disagree with this > > >> > > > design but maybe I am the black sheep... Even if I know C and > > >> > > > bases of > > >> > > > C++, I couldn't let all non C/C++ devels leave the team... > > >> > > > Please everybody say if I am wrong or not ? Maybe I have too much > > >> > > > feelings... Phil > > >> > > > P.S. Harry, it's not that your design is bad (maybe on Glib > > >> thing it is > > >> > > > bad :p) but I think it hasn't any relation with the aMSN that > > >> everybody > > >> > > > know... > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Le Sunday 16 July 2006 20:38, Harry Vennik a ?crit: > > >> > > > > Hi all, > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Last months I have done a lot of thinking about aMSN2. Especially > > >> > > > > about the GUI part of it. I don't know if everyone followed the > > >> > > > > XML2GUI discussion. Anyway, I changed my mind on that subject. I > > >> > > > > was > > >> > > > > convinced that, although XML2GUI solutions did already exist, > > >> > > > > those > > >> > > > > would not fit our needs well enough, so I started off > > >> designing a new > > >> > > > > solution, that would work for us, and probably a lot of others. > > >> > > > > But > > >> > > > > still I did not feel comfortable with that. It was just too much > > >> > > > > a > > >> > > > > matter of reinventing the wheel, and somehow I could not really > > >> > > > > believe that none of the existing solutions would fit. > > >> Especially XUL > > >> > > > > seemed so close, that I decided to go back one step, and > > >> > > > > reinvestigate the possibilities, and try to find out what I > > >> > > > > missed > > >> > > > > the first time. Eventually I found the answer, and chose > > >> > > > > Mozilla's > > >> > > > > XULRunner. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > After that, I started off writing the attached document, to > > >> > > > > specify: > > >> > > > > - What the aMSN2 project is meant to be > > >> > > > > - The aims of aMSN2 > > >> > > > > - The very basics of the technical structure of aMSN2 > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Please read it all, and send your comments on this thread! > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Harry > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >-- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, > > >> > > > security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated > > >> technology to make > > >> > > > your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server > > >> v.1.0.1 based > > >> > > > on Apache Geronimo > > >> > > > > > >> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=12164 > > >> > > >2 _______________________________________________ > > >> > > > Amsn-devel mailing list > > >> > > > [email protected] > > >> > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, > > >> security? > > >> > > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your > > >> > > job > > >> > > easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on > > >> > > Apache > > >> > > Geronimo > > >> > > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > >> > > Amsn-devel mailing list > > >> > > [email protected] > > >> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel > > >> > > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, > > >> > security? > > >> > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job > > >> > easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on > > >> > Apache > > >> > Geronimo > > >> > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > Amsn-devel mailing list > > >> > [email protected] > > >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > > >> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your > > >> job easier > > >> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache > > >> Geronimo > > >> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Amsn-devel mailing list > > >> [email protected] > > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel > > >> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > > > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job > > > easier > > > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > > > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Amsn-devel mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job > > easier > > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > > _______________________________________________ > > Amsn-devel mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > Amsn-devel mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV _______________________________________________ Amsn-devel mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel
