I feel like what's been said here is more directed toward Google management than Android AOSP, per se: not that that's not also an issue.
I understand and agree with what Kostya is saying, and wasn't trying to imply that there are a fixed number of builds with deterministic issues. Even for a certain device, things change and manifest in different ways: from firmware problems, to radio issues, etc... I think there are multiple problems here: - Fragmented OS installs over time - Operating system bugs - The fact that users can't upgrade their OS except through their provider, which usually sucks at writing firmware and often includes apps with special hooks into the OS doing really crazy things (e.g., HtcLoggers) - Poor management of certification to run google play - Certain roms running Google play even though they *shouldn't* be - etc... Many of these are management related, and potentially caused by the fact that Android doesn't control the OS. I think your argument for Linux isn't necessarily applicable here. Linux is all open source, you can install propietary drivers and mess up your device, but that's *extremely* different than going to Gateway (e.g.,) and having them hand you a custom version of Linux which can't be removed from the system. Note that in Linux's case, the codebase stays overwhelmingly the same, where in Android a huge part of the work is done with relatively few engineers working on writing firmware for radios they didn't necessarily design, sticking together proprietary components. I'm not using that as a defense for Android: I just think it's a poor comparison. Kris On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Omer Gilad <omer.gi...@gmail.com> wrote: > That doesn't justify. > An open source project can be maintained with strict regulations and > high-quality standards. > > Google can allow anyone to create his own Android device and sell however > they want - but don't allow it to run Google Play and rate apps! > > I don't recall problems in this massive scope on Linux for example. As far > as I can tell, if I run a Linux program it's going to work 99% of the time. > > > On Friday, July 26, 2013 3:31:26 PM UTC+3, Paul-Peter Tournaris wrote: >> >> Can't agree more with everything that has already been said here, but let >> me remind you something guys: WE chose the Android way, they didn't force >> us! Android is an Open Source Project and therefore it was more than 100% >> sure that problems like the ones mentioned above, would appear by the time. >> There is nothing we can do when almost every brand (Samsung, LG, Sony) uses >> it's own custom ROM. >> >> This should have been handled at the beggining of Android's carreer! It's >> kind of difficult to deal with it at this moment with this huge penetration >> of Android on numerous devices! >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Kostya Vasilyev <kman...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> The conversation so far, and app testing services, assume that there are >>> certain broken device models / firmwares and they are broken in a >>> deterministic way. >>> >>> This implies that those bad devices can be discovered and excluded or >>> workarounds implemented, again, in a deterministic way. >>> >>> From my experience, it's worse than that. >>> >>> I can get a user bug report that makes my jaw drop to the floor, and have >>> a an exact or similar device on my desk that does not exhibit the issue. >>> >>> Basic things get broken: the app not being able to connect to well known >>> servers, a toast notification getting stuck on the screen, the system >>> ActionBar overflow button not showing on a device without a Menu button, >>> etc. >>> >>> Reinstaling or clearing the Dalvik cache (or some other magic) often >>> resolves these. >>> >>> That itself is a bad sign -- meaning that system level things can >>> randomly break and randomly "heal" themselves, in a non-deterministic way. >>> >>> Here is a video I made of Galaxy Nexus with 4.0.2 rebooting when trying >>> to start Google Maps, happened every time out of 10 or so I tried: >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC4EegjeWZA >>> >>> I fixed it by resetting the device back to factory settings and >>> reinstalling Google Maps, but the question remains: why did this help? Did >>> Google Maps get corrupted during installation? Can it happen to other apps >>> too? I'm not even asking why a modern, preemptively multitasking operating >>> system can enter a reboot triggered by application code. >>> >>> I don't have an answer for this situation either. It's just something I >>> have to deal with every day, costing me a lot of wasted time and a depressed >>> mood. >>> >>> The irony is, users always assume it's the app which "must be doing >>> something weird", unlike Windows, where they're quick to blame MS and Bill >>> Gates personally. Must be some kind of Google magic. >>> >>> -- K >>> >>> >>> >>> 2013/7/26 Omer Gilad <omer....@gmail.com> >>> >>>> The point of the original post (the concrete question) was beyond just >>>> rant and rave - the question asked is "How to deal with it". >>>> To put in other words - "What do you suggest as a practical solution to >>>> the problem, beyond just dumping Android and developing for iOS". >>>> To filter out some possible answers: >>>> >>>> 1. Buying 50+ devices and doing QA on each one of them is NOT an option. >>>> It shouldn't ever be. >>>> 2. Paying constantly to remote testing services just to know what bugs >>>> we have (without even the ability to debug and resolve them) is NOT an >>>> option. >>>> 3. Chasing after devices (borrowing from friends, getting debug logs >>>> from users, etc.) and writing ugly code for workarounds time after time is >>>> what I've been doing for some time, but that is NOT an option. >>>> 3. Filtering many devices on Google Play console is our current >>>> solution, which is far from ideal as you can imagine. >>>> >>>> Currently, I don't have an effective way to deal with it, to the point >>>> that I've decided to move to another platform - the current state is >>>> impossible to cope with. >>>> I'm an independent developer, working in cooperation with some people, >>>> and we fail to address the fragmentation issue. >>>> All our efforts invested in creating a quality product are in vain when >>>> it's being run on countless broken devices that we can't keep track of. >>>> Just to back myself up - I've been developing for Android for more than >>>> 3 years, and have been constantly chasing after devices since the >>>> beginning. >>>> I experienced that in multiple types of projects (apps and games), as a >>>> hired or freelance developer and as an entrepreneur. >>>> It applies to every aspect of developing for Android, so this issue >>>> can't be evaded. >>>> To me, this is far more important than answering the questions on API >>>> usage, etc. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Friday, July 26, 2013 2:03:28 PM UTC+3, Kristopher Micinski wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I guess I'm trying to ascertain: is there a concrete question you >>>>> have, or just a bunch of bad points about how the Android ecosystem >>>>> sucks right now? >>>>> >>>>> If it's the second, everyone agrees it sucks, there's not a good >>>>> solution. >>>>> >>>>> I suppose one thing that Android could have done better from the start >>>>> was to offer UI modes that would be guaranteed to homogenous across >>>>> all certified devices. >>>>> >>>>> I don't think that I said statistics were a solution to the issue >>>>> (though apologies if I gave that impression): I meant to merely give >>>>> the idea that because of Android's fragmentation a good way to get a >>>>> handle on what you're facing would be to use device install >>>>> statistics. I never meant to imply that it was in any way a solution. >>>>> >>>>> But everyone agrees that fragmentation sucks. Everyone has agreed it >>>>> sucks since the beginning (even Android 2.0), and people knew it would >>>>> get *worse*. You have to worry about API levels, screen >>>>> configurations, hardware configurations, etc... >>>>> >>>>> I know of a few groups developing open source test services, that >>>>> could presumably end up making a "co op" or something: that would >>>>> definitely give more leeway than traditional expensive test services. >>>>> (If people would be interested, this would be possible to do in the >>>>> community right now: just buy a server, write some code to distribute >>>>> the APKs with a feedback / review system, etc..) >>>>> >>>>> Kris >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Omer Gilad <omer....@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > I agree that it's better than nothing. But, since it's a paid service >>>>> > that >>>>> > has nothing to do with the official SDK, it doesn't come in the SDK's >>>>> > favor >>>>> > at all. >>>>> > >>>>> > The problem appears in much more obvious parts of the SDK than the >>>>> > one I >>>>> > presented. I can give countless examples on demand and I'm sure >>>>> > others can >>>>> > too. >>>>> > >>>>> > Also, I never even bothered to fix custom ROMs and such - this is >>>>> > really >>>>> > beyond my scope. >>>>> > I'm having constant issues with stock, popular devices from Samsung, >>>>> > HTC, >>>>> > etc. - the ones that get shipped in the millions and dominate the >>>>> > Google >>>>> > Play statistics. >>>>> > >>>>> > As you said, statistics are also a temporary "solution" to the issue >>>>> > - just >>>>> > focus on workarounds for the most popular buggy devices - mainly the >>>>> > Samsung >>>>> > Galaxy series and its endless variations. >>>>> > >>>>> > On Friday, July 26, 2013 4:33:52 AM UTC+3, Kristopher Micinski wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Your last paragraph is *exactly* what the CTS is all about, but >>>>> >> obviously if you don't work for google you can't mandate what goes >>>>> >> in >>>>> >> and what does not :-). >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I'm not recommending that these services are the solution to >>>>> >> everyone's problems: but I do contend they get you farther than you >>>>> >> would be otherwise. Games are particularly hard to test, since GPUs >>>>> >> vary more widely across devices and aren't part of the most common >>>>> >> pieces of the SDK. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The fact of the matter is, there are always going to be hacked up >>>>> >> ROMs >>>>> >> running on the market: that's the design decision made by Android. >>>>> >> The CTS helps get you farther to a holistic / cohesive platform, but >>>>> >> in the end it's a numbers game: knowing which devices, API levels, >>>>> >> user bases, countries, etc.. to care about is something the >>>>> >> experienced developer has to have a handle on. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Kris >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Omer Gilad <omer....@gmail.com> >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>> >> > Yes, I've encountered those services. >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > This is still not a solution. >>>>> >> > It requires substantial money investment, and in a lot of cases it >>>>> >> > doesn't >>>>> >> > give you the ability to debug on those devices. >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > Personal example - I'm developing a game, and we've found (after a >>>>> >> > friend >>>>> >> > checked it) that it has major display artifacts on Samsung Galaxy >>>>> >> > S4. >>>>> >> > No logs or attempts to remotely resolve the issue helped - so we >>>>> >> > had to >>>>> >> > get >>>>> >> > our hands on the device for a day. >>>>> >> > It turned out that the device's GPU is buggy, and miscalculates >>>>> >> > some >>>>> >> > common >>>>> >> > shader operations (like matrix multiplication). >>>>> >> > There's no remote testing platform in the world that can assist >>>>> >> > you in >>>>> >> > resolving issues like that. >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > The issue is at the core, and must be solved at a design and >>>>> >> > attitude >>>>> >> > level >>>>> >> > - devices like that SHOULD NOT be allowed to run Google Play apps >>>>> >> > (and >>>>> >> > of >>>>> >> > course, they should be deprived of their certification), until the >>>>> >> > vendor >>>>> >> > fixes those issues. >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > On Friday, July 26, 2013 3:27:49 AM UTC+3, Kristopher Micinski >>>>> >> > wrote: >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> There are potential solutions, but in practice it's a constant >>>>> >> >> battle. >>>>> >> >> Certainly there are people that provide internet based test >>>>> >> >> services >>>>> >> >> that test your app on huge numbers of devices for a subscription >>>>> >> >> based >>>>> >> >> fee. >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> Kris >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:12 PM, Omer Gilad <omer....@gmail.com> >>>>> >> >> wrote: >>>>> >> >> > I've found that even the biggest app developers like Skype, >>>>> >> >> > Gameloft, >>>>> >> >> > etc. >>>>> >> >> > have device issues, and they don't look in such a good shape. >>>>> >> >> > Just scan the reviews of any super-popular Android app, and you >>>>> >> >> > can >>>>> >> >> > see >>>>> >> >> > the >>>>> >> >> > same disease... "This app doesn't even work, it sucks, and I >>>>> >> >> > PAID FOR >>>>> >> >> > IT!" >>>>> >> >> > (from some crappy device). >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > Obviously, those bigger developers have the budget and capacity >>>>> >> >> > to >>>>> >> >> > own >>>>> >> >> > 100's >>>>> >> >> > or Android devices and run a big QA department. >>>>> >> >> > What is an independent developer, or even a small startup >>>>> >> >> > supposed to >>>>> >> >> > do? >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > The "solution" that me and my partners decided on is to >>>>> >> >> > aggressively >>>>> >> >> > filter >>>>> >> >> > down any device that gives us bad ratings in Google Play (from >>>>> >> >> > the >>>>> >> >> > developer >>>>> >> >> > console). >>>>> >> >> > That feels like taking painkillers when you have a broken leg. >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > On Friday, July 26, 2013 2:47:49 AM UTC+3, Kristopher Micinski >>>>> >> >> > wrote: >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> This is basically what the CTS enforcement is attempting to >>>>> >> >> >> rectify: >>>>> >> >> >> but it's obviously not a perfect solution. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Many small developers just accept this as fact, and handle >>>>> >> >> >> only the >>>>> >> >> >> API. Bigger developers are forced to deal with the real >>>>> >> >> >> problems, >>>>> >> >> >> and >>>>> >> >> >> then it's a matter of extensive knowledge, testing, >>>>> >> >> >> metaprogramming, >>>>> >> >> >> etc... >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Kris >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Omer Gilad >>>>> >> >> >> <omer....@gmail.com> >>>>> >> >> >> wrote: >>>>> >> >> >> > .I am wondering how developers here are dealing with the >>>>> >> >> >> > fact that >>>>> >> >> >> > there >>>>> >> >> >> > are >>>>> >> >> >> > 1000's of devices out there, some of them running your >>>>> >> >> >> > applications >>>>> >> >> >> > in >>>>> >> >> >> > very >>>>> >> >> >> > broken ways >>>>> >> >> >> > .I keep running into these kind of issues again and again >>>>> >> >> >> > for the >>>>> >> >> >> > past 3 >>>>> >> >> >> > years, and to be honest, I'm fed up with it >>>>> >> >> >> > .I've decided to move to iOS development, and the only way >>>>> >> >> >> > to >>>>> >> >> >> > convince >>>>> >> >> >> > me >>>>> >> >> >> > otherwise is to give me a decent, reliable way of dealing >>>>> >> >> >> > with >>>>> >> >> >> > fragmentation >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > So what do you do when you develop a game, for example, and >>>>> >> >> >> > try to >>>>> >> >> >> > create a >>>>> >> >> >> > high-quality user experience on Google Play? >>>>> >> >> >> > Do you do your QA on 50 different devices? 100? 1000? >>>>> >> >> >> > Or do you just shoot blindly and hope that it works, or wait >>>>> >> >> >> > for >>>>> >> >> >> > users >>>>> >> >> >> > to >>>>> >> >> >> > send you bug reports? >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > To make it clear, I'm not talking about "official" >>>>> >> >> >> > fragmentation. >>>>> >> >> >> > I don't talk about different screen sizes, densities, >>>>> >> >> >> > features, OS >>>>> >> >> >> > versions >>>>> >> >> >> > and so on. >>>>> >> >> >> > I talk about the "unofficial" fragmentation. The fact that >>>>> >> >> >> > most >>>>> >> >> >> > devices, >>>>> >> >> >> > even the popular ones from the big companies like Samsung, >>>>> >> >> >> > HTC, >>>>> >> >> >> > Motorola, LG >>>>> >> >> >> > and so on, contain tons of implementation bugs that prevent >>>>> >> >> >> > apps >>>>> >> >> >> > from >>>>> >> >> >> > working correctly. >>>>> >> >> >> > I'm talking about the fact that you can call a certain >>>>> >> >> >> > simple API, >>>>> >> >> >> > test >>>>> >> >> >> > it >>>>> >> >> >> > on a stock Android ROM (like on Nexus 4), and then have your >>>>> >> >> >> > application >>>>> >> >> >> > crash on some Samsung, that decided to break the >>>>> >> >> >> > implementation >>>>> >> >> >> > because >>>>> >> >> >> > of >>>>> >> >> >> > some customization. >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > How can people stand that? >>>>> >> >> >> > How is it possible to write code, when the machine that >>>>> >> >> >> > executes >>>>> >> >> >> > it >>>>> >> >> >> > is >>>>> >> >> >> > completely broken in unexpected ways? >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > I'm really fed up with it. >>>>> >> >> >> > About 50% of my Android development time is wasted on >>>>> >> >> >> > babysitting >>>>> >> >> >> > broken >>>>> >> >> >> > devices. >>>>> >> >> >> > I'm waiting for an official Google response about this, and >>>>> >> >> >> > what >>>>> >> >> >> > have >>>>> >> >> >> > you >>>>> >> >> >> > been doing in all those years to fix that. >>>>> >> >> >> > I've heard about things like "conformance tests" for devices >>>>> >> >> >> > and >>>>> >> >> >> > so >>>>> >> >> >> > on, >>>>> >> >> >> > but >>>>> >> >> >> > the reality is far from acceptable in this area. >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > ,Looking forward for helpful responses >>>>> >> >> >> > Omer >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > -- >>>>> >> >> >> > -- >>>>> >> >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>> >> >> >> > Google >>>>> >> >> >> > Groups "Android Developers" group. >>>>> >> >> >> > 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