Hello Jacob,
I would love to give you a proper bug feedback report on
apertium-viewer. I think that's the right thing to do, not complain on
the list. So, I apologise for my comments. Unfortunately, a bug report
would cost me too much time. I'd probably end by resolving the bug [Rob
sighs!].
I talked to Francis on IRC. Also, I know a bit about Java (I should say,
Scala). We strongly suspected a file permissions problem, or a basic
problem with file reading. Nothing more than that. May be related to
Java versions? Or security? I can not tell you any more, for sure.
I can tell you that switching to the C++ version did not help, though
the fails were different (perhaps the problem is not as simple as file
permissions?).
As far as I understand, a working apertium-viewer would help Donald to
where he would like to be. Java---works on everything, *sometimes*...
Regards,
Rob
On Mon, 2017-01-16 at 11:05 +0100, Jacob Nordfalk wrote:
> Saluton Donald,
>
>
> Pardonu pro mia malfrua respondo.
>
>
> First, it seems that the easy to run Apertium-viewer and the easy
> precompiled online pairs was what got you hooked on Apertium and gave
> you an insight on how the system work ('a way to show each step as
> it's done rather than just the final results. ')
>
>
> I'm very happy for that, as that is one of the primary goals
> of Apertium-viewer :-)
>
>
>
>
>
> The other primary goal of Apertium-viewer is to be an accessible/easy
> but powerfull tool to develop language pairs.
> To do that (be a language pair developer) you have to download and
> compile pairs from source (SVN), as well as the C++ libraries which
> Apertium consists of.
>
> Apertium-viewer can automate some steps but it is not a tool that sets
> up a complete develeopment environment for you.
>
>
>
> So, your message indeed does a lot of good, it warms my heart and you
> have got plenty of feedback on next step - which is to get your basic
> Apertium developer C++ tools working.
>
>
> I wont have time in the next month or so but I'd love to repair bugs
> in Apertium-viewer, so everyone (especially Robert) please keep the
> tool around so we can get the bugs fixed.
>
>
> Note that Apertium-viewer has 2 ways of working - using a buildin Java
> version or invoking an external C++ version. Try using the C++
> version if you get errors in the Java version:
> Billede indsat i tekst 1
>
>
>
>
>
> Yours,
> Jacob
>
>
>
>
>
> 2017-01-16 10:29 GMT+01:00 robert <[email protected]>:
> Hello Donald,
>
> - "not spend years or decades trying to figure out what I need
> to know
> in order to begin"
> I felt the same way. I did not know if Apertium would do what
> I wanted.
> I gave myself a week of evenings to see *something*. Then, I
> said to
> myself, I will abandon my efforts, as I could not afford the
> time.
>
> (...and now I am, when I am able, working on the Wiki, to
> contribute my
> experience back)
>
>
> - "adding a way to show each step as it's done rather than
> just the
> final results"
> For me, it was a breakthrough when I understood the 'modes',
> and how the
> effort put into templates, mode generation, and release
> software has
> made debugging and building new pairs fluent. I can understand
> your
> frustration.
>
> I guess what you need, above all, right now, is a fluent
> workflow? I'm
> not someone who demands sheets of configuration information
> before
> telling someone to read the manual, but...
>
> It may be helpful for the list (you may have explained on
> IRC?) if we
> knew the general environment you are working in, or are
> prepared to work
> in? Windows/Linux/Mac? My solution was clearly Linux-based
> (after the
> Java tools threw errors that I was not prepared to fight
> with).
>
>
> - "someone who knows what they're doing"
> I doubt anyone would claim to understand or recall the whole
> scope of
> Apertium? Some of the orphaned projects are remarkable and
> bizarre. Only
> a few says ago, I was swapping information about film
> subtitling---I was
> told this has not been tried in a long time, yet there is a
> lot of
> software in the repository.
>
> Notes: The 'documentation' front page remark about the manual
> is not
> fully correct. Important: for disambiguation, the project is
> now leaning
> towards the 'lexical selection' module. Perhaps you have good
> reason for
> using HFST?
>
> Adding to the links suggested by Hèctor... Ok, I understand
> your main
> problem is the workflow. But until you have one, or as a side
> interest
> while you/we find a way forward, here is my proposed reference
> page for
> the stages/modules in Apertium. This is intended to support
> the new
> 'stages' diagram, and contains a huge mass of information,
> links, and
> examples,
>
> http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/User:Rcrowther
>
> It is difficult to read and understand, but I know I would
> have welcomed
> finding this page when I first came to Apertium.
>
> Please do not depend on this page staying at this link. I
> would like to
> publish to the Wiki.
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
>
> On Sun, 2017-01-15 at 07:51 -0800, Donald Arthur Kronos wrote:
> > Thanks Robert. Yes, what I had actually originally been
> asking about
> > was the possibility of someone who knows what they're doing,
> adding a
> > way to show each step as it's done rather than just the
> final results.
> > I'm a bit of a newbie when it comes to Linux, so I expect it
> would
> > take quite a while for me to accomplish such a task on my
> own... so I
> > asked, because what I want to do is get working on making
> language
> > pairs as quickly as possible, not spend years or decades
> trying to
> > figure out what I need to know in order to begin.
> >
> >
> > So far, I have been working on experimental language pairs
> using HFST
> > on one or both of the monolingual resources, and there are
> many things
> > which are still too mysterious for me to make the progress I
> am trying
> > to.
> >
> >
> > Donald A. Kronos
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 7:27 AM, robert
> <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> > Hello Donald,
> >
> > I do not know if my experience is relevant, but I
> started a
> > new language
> > pair two months ago. I had no knowledge of Apertium.
> I should
> > add also
> > that I am not a trained linguist, nor a practising
> translator.
> > My work
> > has been (at best) 'nursery' level. However, it has
> been
> > successful for
> > my own ends.
> >
> > I do not want to talk about your problems directly,
> as Kevin
> > has
> > answered directly about one issue, and we could
> spend a lot of
> > time
> > hunting down problems.
> >
> > 'apertium-viewer' is the program I think people
> mean. It shows
> > the
> > various steps in translation. It is a Java program,
> and I was
> > unable to
> > get any Apertium Java program working; I've seen the
> message
> > about
> > 'apertium-xxx-yyy.automorf' several times. I use
> Linux with an
> > OpenJDK,
> > and was very reluctant to try a full Oracle install
> (an
> > obvious next
> > step).
> >
> > However, the Apertium project is unlike many
> projects I have
> > visited. It
> > seems to have been assembled from bursts of
> enthusiasm, with a
> > great
> > deal of love, and much input from professional
> thought. On a
> > relative
> > scale, there is more code lying round this project
> than any
> > other I have
> > encountered.
> >
> > My solution was my solution, and may not work for
> you. I am
> > not
> > recommending this approach, but using it as an
> illustration. I
> > used
> > 'apertium-tolk', which I think is deprecated. But it
> is in
> > Linux
> > repositories and, a Python program, it is still
> working. Once
> > I had
> > apertium-tolk working, I could build a basic new
> pair and see
> > results.
> >
> > Then I needed, as you have suggested you need, to
> see the
> > steps in
> > translation. For this, since I am working in Linux,
> I was able
> > to use
> > the commandline and modes. Please see this Wiki
> page,
> >
> > http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/Modes_introduction
> >
> > I wrote this page only three weeks(?) ago. I do not
> know how
> > far
> > advanced you are in understanding, but here is my
> proposed
> > replacement
> > for the overall diagram of Apertium structure,
> >
> >
> http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/File:Apertium-structure.svg
> >
> > I am not recommending these wiki contributions
> because I
> > authored them.
> > When I developed my pair, I became very fond of the
> Apertium
> > Wiki, due
> > to the generous efforts of many contributors, and
> the
> > astonishing range
> > of material. But I have come to realise that there
> is a layer
> > of
> > material missing; of general introductions and
> indexing of
> > material. If
> > you have any ideas about where I could work, please
> tell me
> > (yes, I have
> > written Wiki pages to fully update installation and
> new pair
> > instructions).
> >
> > And I would add, my experience with Apertium, though
> > occasionally
> > frustrating, has lead to results which have been
> wonderful. I
> > only wish,
> > and have been actively seeking, time and
> justification to
> > continue. I
> > hope the problems you have encountered do not spoil
> your
> > projects.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Rob
> >
> > On Sat, 2017-01-14 at 15:12 -0800, Donald Arthur
> Kronos wrote:
> > > I do not know the proper procedures for a "mailing
> list"
> > such as this,
> > > but I'm trying very hard to learn enough of how
> Apertium
> > works to
> > > develop language pairs on it, so I'm giving this a
> try.
> > >
> > >
> > > I had been asking on the #apertium IRC channel
> about a way
> > to see the
> > > steps being taken by Apertium in the process of
> translating
> > something,
> > > especially in an experimental language pair that
> one hasn't
> > shared
> > > with the public yet (in the early stages of
> learning how to
> > make
> > > monolingual resources and language pairs), and
> perhaps even
> > the
> > > potential addition of step-by-step round-trip
> translation
> > support,
> > > from a source language to a target language and
> back, seeing
> > the steps
> > > along the way, and I was directed to Apertium-view
> as a tool
> > which
> > > should be able to do at least part of what I was
> looking
> > for.
> > >
> > >
> > > After downloading Apertium-view and getting it to
> work on an
> > > online-language pair I could see that it would
> serve most of
> > the
> > > purpose I had in mind, and even includes
> substantial
> > additional
> > > functionality, but unfortunately when I tried it
> with a
> > local
> > > experimental language pair it complained that the
> mode file
> > I
> > > specified could not be found. So, I made a new
> experimental
> > language
> > > pair on my system's main drive, thinking perhaps
> it can't
> > see my
> > > removable media, and that got it to see the mode
> file, but
> > then it
> > > claims all the other files it needs cannot be
> found.
> > Actually, there
> > > were more steps involved than what I'm describing,
> but I'm
> > trying to
> > > keep this simple. For example, I noticed the
> original error
> > message
> > > gave the address of the mode file twice, in one
> correctly
> > case
> > > starting with "/" and in the other case not, so...
> yeah...
> > long story.
> > > Anyway, I have been trying to figure out how to
> contact the
> > developer
> > > of Apertium-view and here's a copy of the text of
> the e-mail
> > I
> > > recently sent out as one attempt...
> > >
> > >
> > > "Saluton. I hope this reaches the right person.
> > >
> > >
> > > I am trying to work on language pairs on Apertium,
> but am
> > having
> > > trouble finding the information I need, so I
> recently asked
> > about any
> > > tool that could help me see the steps Apertium is
> taking as
> > it
> > > translates from one language to another, and I was
> directed
> > to
> > > Apertium-viewer. However, I have been unable to
> get it to
> > work for my
> > > local experimental language pairs. I see in the
> wiki page
> > that it is
> > > supposed to work with SVN source directories but I
> still
> > have no clue
> > > how to set up such a thing, nor do I think my
> experimental
> > language
> > > pairs are ready for that stage since I am still
> trying to
> > learn how to
> > > make them properly. Apertium-view cannot seem to
> open any
> > files at all
> > > from my removable media (which is the only place I
> really
> > have space
> > > to work) and even when I made an experimental
> language pair
> > in my home
> > > directory and was able to get it to open a mode
> file, it
> > still failed
> > > to be able to open any of the files it then needed
> to
> > proceed. For
> > > example, it says that it cannot open
> > > "/home/tz/apertium-qlt-qay.automorf.bin" even
> though that
> > file does
> > > exist, is not on removable media, and has its
> permissions
> > set so that
> > > it should be accessible. I'm somewhat of a newbie
> on Linux
> > so it MAY
> > > BE something I'm doing wrong, but I have no way of
> knowing.
> > Please,
> > > help if you can."
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > >
> > >
> > > Maybe he'll see this... or maybe someone else will
> see it
> > and be able
> > > to tell me how to work around it, or perhaps my
> expressed
> > intent will
> > > inspire something I hadn't even directly thought
> of.
> > Regardless, I
> > > hope this message does some good, somehow.
> > >
> > >
> > > Donald Arthur Kronos
> >
> > >
> >
>
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> > > [email protected]
> > >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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> >
> >
>
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> platforms.
> > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE.
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>
>
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>
> --
> Jacob Nordfalk
> javabog.dk
>
> Androidudvikler og -underviser på DTU og Lund&Bendsen
>
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