Request accepted. That page stays there, until I publish to the Wiki. Difficulties while computing I can understand. I am living on less than half of England's official poverty-level income, and can get no job. My Apertium computer, a salvaged Thinkpad, has not enough memory to run a development environment.
I think it's grand you are experimenting with Pig-Latin. After all, my own pair is for a lost, and local, language. I have run into the problem that people round here seem to be embarrassed that I should treat the language with serious intent, through the power of Apertium. I think it's time to level how I did did it. Not because it will work for you, but maybe a hint or two may be in the following? I'm working in Linux Mint, which means there is little practical difference between the machines. You already know a little, that all Java programs, e.g. apertium-viewer, did not work for me. The following is a mess because I'm cutting from my notes (yet more potential Wiki pages), === 1. Binary download from the PPA. That's all you need for language development (a misreading of the install instructions, which need updating, lead me to attempt a compile). ====== Debian-based ====== If you have a Debain or Debain-based system (e.g. Ubuntu, Mint...) this is the best approach. First, remove any Apertium packages you have installed from operating system repositories. They will be out-of-date, sometimes by years. Add the repository, <pre> # Pick one: # Release, stable: wget https://apertium.projectjj.com/apt/install-release.sh -O - | sudo bash # Nightly, unstable: wget https://apertium.projectjj.com/apt/install-nightly.sh -O - | sudo bash </pre> Install dev tools, <pre> sudo apt-get -f install apertium-all-dev </pre> == 2. Install build tools These are needed for building new language pairs, * subversion (SVN) * autoconf * automake or see this page http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/Prerequisites_for_nix == 3. A big WARNING about the naming of pairs Use three letter names. Other names, even the two letter names still attached to some pairs, will fail in some tools. What you use is unimportant. If you need a 'dialect', do like this, apertium-lat_pig-lat Note the underscore. The dialect can be as many letters as you want. == 4. New dictionaries/pairs To quickly create the "skeleton" of a language pair (empty dictionaries, makefiles etc.), use this script, <pre> wget https://raw.githubusercontent.com/apertium/bootstrap/master/apertium-init.py </pre> The 'apertium-init.py' script is sophisticated enough to offer help. The options will mainly be of interest if you only need part of a pair, as they eliminate unnecessary configuration files ('rlx', 'prob', 'pgen') which may break a build, <pre> ./apertium-get -h </pre> Now run the script, once for one dictionary, or three times for a full pair ('xxx' and 'yyy' are the source and target language codes), <pre> python3 apertium-init.py xxx python3 apertium-init.py yyy python3 apertium-init.py xxx-yyy </pre> (The script may complain about not connecting to SVN repositories, but if you need that, you'll know) You'll get directories <code>apertium-xxx, apertium-yyy, apertium-xxx-yyy</code> == 5. Configuring dictionaries/pairs Go into every directory, configure the build and run an initial <code>make</code>. Note that in this set of folders for a pair, configuring starts with the monolingual dictionaries, <pre> cd apertium-xxx ./autogen.sh make cd - cd apertium-yyy ./autogen.sh make </pre> Now, this is important! After the two monolingual dictionaries are compiled, if you are building a pair, configure the bilingual directory so it can configure from the two monolingual directories, <pre> cd - cd apertium-xxx-yyy ./autogen.sh --with-lang1=../apertium-xxx --with-lang2=../apertium-yyy make </pre> You can regenerate the build at any time. For example, if you have developed and wish to install, but to a directory you have only now discovered, re-configure with the two other languages, plus the new <code>--prefix</code> for installation, <pre> cd apertium-xxx-yyy ./autogen.sh --prefix=xxx --with-lang1=../apertium-xxx --with-lang2=../apertium-yyy </pre> Run the 'make everything' command, <pre> make langs </pre> == 6. Repeating the build All you need, when changes are made, is <pre> make langs </pre> in the bilingual dictionary. That is ALL. A stroke of Apertium genius. Eternal thanks to whoever conceived and coded this. == 7. How do I use it? I would say, ignore all the tools, ignore all the instructions you find on the Wiki. Use a mode directly from the commandline, and start doing what you want to do, work on languages. Using a terminal, navigate into the folder, then, echo 'This is a test sentence.' | apertium -d . xxx-yyy Wnat is happening at the first chunker stage? echo 'This is a test sentence.' | apertium -d . xxx-yyy-chunker etc. Regards, Rob On Mon, 2017-01-16 at 22:55 -0800, Donald Arthur Kronos wrote: > Saluton Jacob Nordfalk. No, actually I have been interested in > Apertium since its early days, but I have in all that time not had a > suitable system on which to work with it, until now, and so have not > paid close attention to the changes over the years. I found out about > Apertium-viewer by asking in the #apertium IRC channel if such a tool > existed or could perhaps be produced by someone who knew Apertium well > enough. Discovering the "modes" was what triggered the idea that such > a tool was in fact reasonable to ask about, and if I was feeling > better and not such a newbie to both Apertium and Linux it's quite > likely that I would merely have set my sights on writing a Linux batch > file to serve the purpose, but as it stands I am having a difficult > time from day to day and even moment to moment getting anything done > at all. Yesterday was the first time in almost a month that I felt > well enough to get out and join any of the many political protest > rallies happening here, and while I knew of 6 o f them, I managed to > go to 2, but by the time I got home I was thoroughly exhausted from > the effort. Anyway, I too would like Apertium-viewer to serve well the > primary goals you expressed, or at least for SOMETHING to serve that > purpose, which is the main reason why I asked about such a tool in the > first place, and the main reason why I have looked for how to contact > you about the problems I have had with it rather than just giving up. > You say that to develop language pairs or to be a language pair > developer I must download and compile pairs from SVN, but isn't that > excluding those who wish to develop pairs which include languages not > yet available on Apertium? If possible, I would love it if you would > add a mode to allow one or both of the languages used with > Apertium-viewer to be a new language, not yet on SVN. If that is not a > possibility for the near future, (and eventually even if it is), I > would love it if someone would tell me how to get a new EXPERIMENTAL > language onto SVN, and preferally how to do so without it showing up > as anything more than what it is... experimental. After all, if I have > a non-functional language resource with a lexicon of one word that I > am trying to make functional in order to learn step by step what goes > into that process, I wouldn't want some other person to download it > thinking it's fully functional or that its form is not expected to > change. As for C++ tools, or the difference between the C++ and Java > modes of Apertium-viewer, I'm not even there yet. I'm just trying to > get, for the moment, a working translation of the English noun "house" > and its plural inflected form "houses" to properly translate to and > from the Pig Latin noun "ousehay" and it's plural inflected form > "ouseshay", and to understand how to then move on to adding other > nouns, verbs, and so on, so that by the time I get to working on > adding an Esper' family language such as Englic' Esper' or Esperant' > Esper', it will be with a reasonable understanding of what my options > are and why some choices may be better than others. > > > Dankon, Hektor. Mi estas en Kalifornia, Usono, (UTC-8:00). Nuntempe mi > estas iom malsana, do bonvolu havi paciencon kun mi. > > > Thanks for the links ilnar.salimzyan. My health is not well lately, so > I don't know how quickly I will get trough such material, but I am > doing my best. > > > Greetings Robert. I'm working on a very minimal Ubuntu Linux 14.04 > system. Specifically, an Intel Compute Stick, model STCK1A8LFC. In > order to make room to work on Apertium, I removed some of the > pre-installed software, such as Libre Office, and I also set up a 128 > GB micro-SD card as an external drive which to the extent possible I > am attempting to use as my work space. I'm rather new to Linux, but it > seemed like the best way to go for working on Apertium. This is > something I have wanted to do for a very long time, but it is only > recently that I have managed to get a system together on which I can > begin to even try. Unfortunately, the stress of the recent USA > political situation, and my own efforts to make a positive difference, > have taken a toll on my health from which I have not fully recovered, > so my ability to accomplish much of anything is spuradic at best. > Still, I am trying. My main reason for using HFST is that as a > learning test case I'm working with Pig-Latin, which effectively uses > infix-based rather than suffix-based inflection. It also looks like it > should be more efficient for the Esper' family languages, fir various > reasons, although it is difficult for me to be sure at this point. I > would like to learn about as many possibilities as possible before > making that decision. I'll attempt to give the page at > http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/User:Rcrowther a thorough reading. > Hopefully it will be there long enough for me to do that. Thanks. > > > Donald Arthur Kronos > > > > On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 5:49 AM, robert <[email protected]> > wrote: > Hello Jacob, > > I would love to give you a proper bug feedback report on > apertium-viewer. I think that's the right thing to do, not > complain on > the list. So, I apologise for my comments. Unfortunately, a > bug report > would cost me too much time. I'd probably end by resolving the > bug [Rob > sighs!]. > > I talked to Francis on IRC. Also, I know a bit about Java (I > should say, > Scala). We strongly suspected a file permissions problem, or a > basic > problem with file reading. Nothing more than that. May be > related to > Java versions? Or security? I can not tell you any more, for > sure. > > I can tell you that switching to the C++ version did not help, > though > the fails were different (perhaps the problem is not as simple > as file > permissions?). > > As far as I understand, a working apertium-viewer would help > Donald to > where he would like to be. Java---works on everything, > *sometimes*... > > Regards, > Rob > > On Mon, 2017-01-16 at 11:05 +0100, Jacob Nordfalk wrote: > > Saluton Donald, > > > > > > Pardonu pro mia malfrua respondo. > > > > > > First, it seems that the easy to run Apertium-viewer and the > easy > > precompiled online pairs was what got you hooked on Apertium > and gave > > you an insight on how the system work ('a way to show each > step as > > it's done rather than just the final results. ') > > > > > > I'm very happy for that, as that is one of the primary goals > > of Apertium-viewer :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > The other primary goal of Apertium-viewer is to be an > accessible/easy > > but powerfull tool to develop language pairs. > > To do that (be a language pair developer) you have to > download and > > compile pairs from source (SVN), as well as the C++ > libraries which > > Apertium consists of. > > > > Apertium-viewer can automate some steps but it is not a tool > that sets > > up a complete develeopment environment for you. > > > > > > > > So, your message indeed does a lot of good, it warms my > heart and you > > have got plenty of feedback on next step - which is to get > your basic > > Apertium developer C++ tools working. > > > > > > I wont have time in the next month or so but I'd love to > repair bugs > > in Apertium-viewer, so everyone (especially Robert) please > keep the > > tool around so we can get the bugs fixed. > > > > > > Note that Apertium-viewer has 2 ways of working - using a > buildin Java > > version or invoking an external C++ version. Try using the C > ++ > > version if you get errors in the Java version: > > > Billede indsat i tekst 1 > > > > > > > > > > > > Yours, > > Jacob > > > > > > > > > > > > 2017-01-16 10:29 GMT+01:00 robert > <[email protected]>: > > Hello Donald, > > > > - "not spend years or decades trying to figure out > what I need > > to know > > in order to begin" > > I felt the same way. I did not know if Apertium > would do what > > I wanted. > > I gave myself a week of evenings to see *something*. > Then, I > > said to > > myself, I will abandon my efforts, as I could not > afford the > > time. > > > > (...and now I am, when I am able, working on the > Wiki, to > > contribute my > > experience back) > > > > > > - "adding a way to show each step as it's done > rather than > > just the > > final results" > > For me, it was a breakthrough when I understood the > 'modes', > > and how the > > effort put into templates, mode generation, and > release > > software has > > made debugging and building new pairs fluent. I can > understand > > your > > frustration. > > > > I guess what you need, above all, right now, is a > fluent > > workflow? I'm > > not someone who demands sheets of configuration > information > > before > > telling someone to read the manual, but... > > > > It may be helpful for the list (you may have > explained on > > IRC?) if we > > knew the general environment you are working in, or > are > > prepared to work > > in? Windows/Linux/Mac? My solution was clearly > Linux-based > > (after the > > Java tools threw errors that I was not prepared to > fight > > with). > > > > > > - "someone who knows what they're doing" > > I doubt anyone would claim to understand or recall > the whole > > scope of > > Apertium? Some of the orphaned projects are > remarkable and > > bizarre. Only > > a few says ago, I was swapping information about > film > > subtitling---I was > > told this has not been tried in a long time, yet > there is a > > lot of > > software in the repository. > > > > Notes: The 'documentation' front page remark about > the manual > > is not > > fully correct. Important: for disambiguation, the > project is > > now leaning > > towards the 'lexical selection' module. Perhaps you > have good > > reason for > > using HFST? > > > > Adding to the links suggested by Hèctor... Ok, I > understand > > your main > > problem is the workflow. But until you have one, or > as a side > > interest > > while you/we find a way forward, here is my proposed > reference > > page for > > the stages/modules in Apertium. This is intended to > support > > the new > > 'stages' diagram, and contains a huge mass of > information, > > links, and > > examples, > > > > http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/User:Rcrowther > > > > It is difficult to read and understand, but I know I > would > > have welcomed > > finding this page when I first came to Apertium. > > > > Please do not depend on this page staying at this > link. I > > would like to > > publish to the Wiki. > > > > Regards, > > Rob > > > > > > On Sun, 2017-01-15 at 07:51 -0800, Donald Arthur > Kronos wrote: > > > Thanks Robert. Yes, what I had actually originally > been > > asking about > > > was the possibility of someone who knows what > they're doing, > > adding a > > > way to show each step as it's done rather than > just the > > final results. > > > I'm a bit of a newbie when it comes to Linux, so I > expect it > > would > > > take quite a while for me to accomplish such a > task on my > > own... so I > > > asked, because what I want to do is get working on > making > > language > > > pairs as quickly as possible, not spend years or > decades > > trying to > > > figure out what I need to know in order to begin. > > > > > > > > > So far, I have been working on experimental > language pairs > > using HFST > > > on one or both of the monolingual resources, and > there are > > many things > > > which are still too mysterious for me to make the > progress I > > am trying > > > to. > > > > > > > > > Donald A. Kronos > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 7:27 AM, robert > > <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > Hello Donald, > > > > > > I do not know if my experience is > relevant, but I > > started a > > > new language > > > pair two months ago. I had no knowledge of > Apertium. > > I should > > > add also > > > that I am not a trained linguist, nor a > practising > > translator. > > > My work > > > has been (at best) 'nursery' level. > However, it has > > been > > > successful for > > > my own ends. > > > > > > I do not want to talk about your problems > directly, > > as Kevin > > > has > > > answered directly about one issue, and we > could > > spend a lot of > > > time > > > hunting down problems. > > > > > > 'apertium-viewer' is the program I think > people > > mean. It shows > > > the > > > various steps in translation. It is a Java > program, > > and I was > > > unable to > > > get any Apertium Java program working; > I've seen the > > message > > > about > > > 'apertium-xxx-yyy.automorf' several times. > I use > > Linux with an > > > OpenJDK, > > > and was very reluctant to try a full > Oracle install > > (an > > > obvious next > > > step). > > > > > > However, the Apertium project is unlike > many > > projects I have > > > visited. It > > > seems to have been assembled from bursts > of > > enthusiasm, with a > > > great > > > deal of love, and much input from > professional > > thought. On a > > > relative > > > scale, there is more code lying round this > project > > than any > > > other I have > > > encountered. > > > > > > My solution was my solution, and may not > work for > > you. I am > > > not > > > recommending this approach, but using it > as an > > illustration. I > > > used > > > 'apertium-tolk', which I think is > deprecated. But it > > is in > > > Linux > > > repositories and, a Python program, it is > still > > working. Once > > > I had > > > apertium-tolk working, I could build a > basic new > > pair and see > > > results. > > > > > > Then I needed, as you have suggested you > need, to > > see the > > > steps in > > > translation. For this, since I am working > in Linux, > > I was able > > > to use > > > the commandline and modes. Please see this > Wiki > > page, > > > > > > > http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/Modes_introduction > > > > > > I wrote this page only three weeks(?) ago. > I do not > > know how > > > far > > > advanced you are in understanding, but > here is my > > proposed > > > replacement > > > for the overall diagram of Apertium > structure, > > > > > > > > > http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/File:Apertium-structure.svg > > > > > > I am not recommending these wiki > contributions > > because I > > > authored them. > > > When I developed my pair, I became very > fond of the > > Apertium > > > Wiki, due > > > to the generous efforts of many > contributors, and > > the > > > astonishing range > > > of material. But I have come to realise > that there > > is a layer > > > of > > > material missing; of general introductions > and > > indexing of > > > material. If > > > you have any ideas about where I could > work, please > > tell me > > > (yes, I have > > > written Wiki pages to fully update > installation and > > new pair > > > instructions). > > > > > > And I would add, my experience with > Apertium, though > > > occasionally > > > frustrating, has lead to results which > have been > > wonderful. I > > > only wish, > > > and have been actively seeking, time and > > justification to > > > continue. I > > > hope the problems you have encountered do > not spoil > > your > > > projects. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Rob > > > > > > On Sat, 2017-01-14 at 15:12 -0800, Donald > Arthur > > Kronos wrote: > > > > I do not know the proper procedures for > a "mailing > > list" > > > such as this, > > > > but I'm trying very hard to learn enough > of how > > Apertium > > > works to > > > > develop language pairs on it, so I'm > giving this a > > try. > > > > > > > > > > > > I had been asking on the #apertium IRC > channel > > about a way > > > to see the > > > > steps being taken by Apertium in the > process of > > translating > > > something, > > > > especially in an experimental language > pair that > > one hasn't > > > shared > > > > with the public yet (in the early stages > of > > learning how to > > > make > > > > monolingual resources and language > pairs), and > > perhaps even > > > the > > > > potential addition of step-by-step > round-trip > > translation > > > support, > > > > from a source language to a target > language and > > back, seeing > > > the steps > > > > along the way, and I was directed to > Apertium-view > > as a tool > > > which > > > > should be able to do at least part of > what I was > > looking > > > for. > > > > > > > > > > > > After downloading Apertium-view and > getting it to > > work on an > > > > online-language pair I could see that it > would > > serve most of > > > the > > > > purpose I had in mind, and even includes > > substantial > > > additional > > > > functionality, but unfortunately when I > tried it > > with a > > > local > > > > experimental language pair it complained > that the > > mode file > > > I > > > > specified could not be found. So, I made > a new > > experimental > > > language > > > > pair on my system's main drive, thinking > perhaps > > it can't > > > see my > > > > removable media, and that got it to see > the mode > > file, but > > > then it > > > > claims all the other files it needs > cannot be > > found. > > > Actually, there > > > > were more steps involved than what I'm > describing, > > but I'm > > > trying to > > > > keep this simple. For example, I noticed > the > > original error > > > message > > > > gave the address of the mode file twice, > in one > > correctly > > > case > > > > starting with "/" and in the other case > not, so... > > yeah... > > > long story. > > > > Anyway, I have been trying to figure out > how to > > contact the > > > developer > > > > of Apertium-view and here's a copy of > the text of > > the e-mail > > > I > > > > recently sent out as one attempt... > > > > > > > > > > > > "Saluton. I hope this reaches the right > person. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am trying to work on language pairs on > Apertium, > > but am > > > having > > > > trouble finding the information I need, > so I > > recently asked > > > about any > > > > tool that could help me see the steps > Apertium is > > taking as > > > it > > > > translates from one language to another, > and I was > > directed > > > to > > > > Apertium-viewer. However, I have been > unable to > > get it to > > > work for my > > > > local experimental language pairs. I see > in the > > wiki page > > > that it is > > > > supposed to work with SVN source > directories but I > > still > > > have no clue > > > > how to set up such a thing, nor do I > think my > > experimental > > > language > > > > pairs are ready for that stage since I > am still > > trying to > > > learn how to > > > > make them properly. Apertium-view cannot > seem to > > open any > > > files at all > > > > from my removable media (which is the > only place I > > really > > > have space > > > > to work) and even when I made an > experimental > > language pair > > > in my home > > > > directory and was able to get it to open > a mode > > file, it > > > still failed > > > > to be able to open any of the files it > then needed > > to > > > proceed. For > > > > example, it says that it cannot open > > > > "/home/tz/apertium-qlt-qay.automorf.bin" > even > > though that > > > file does > > > > exist, is not on removable media, and > has its > > permissions > > > set so that > > > > it should be accessible. I'm somewhat of > a newbie > > on Linux > > > so it MAY > > > > BE something I'm doing wrong, but I have > no way of > > knowing. > > > Please, > > > > help if you can." > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe he'll see this... or maybe someone > else will > > see it > > > and be able > > > > to tell me how to work around it, or > perhaps my > > expressed > > > intent will > > > > inspire something I hadn't even directly > thought > > of. > > > Regardless, I > > > > hope this message does some good, > somehow. > > > > > > > > > > > > Donald Arthur Kronos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon > Phi > > Processors > > > > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based > developer > > > platforms. > > > > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio > XE. > > > > Training and support from Colfax. > > > > Order your platform today. > http://sdm.link/xeonphi > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Apertium-stuff mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon > Phi > > Processors > > > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based > developer > > platforms. > > > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE. > > > Training and support from Colfax. > > > Order your platform today. > http://sdm.link/xeonphi > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Apertium-stuff mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi > Processors > > > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer > > platforms. > > > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE. > > > Training and support from Colfax. > > > Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Apertium-stuff mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi > Processors > > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer > platforms. > > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE. > > Training and support from Colfax. > > Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi > > _______________________________________________ > > Apertium-stuff mailing list > > [email protected] > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Jacob Nordfalk > > javabog.dk > > > > Androidudvikler og -underviser på DTU og Lund&Bendsen > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors > > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer > platforms. > > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE. > > Training and support from Colfax. > > Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi > > _______________________________________________ > > Apertium-stuff mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Developer Access Program for Intel Xeon Phi Processors > Access to Intel Xeon Phi processor-based developer platforms. > With one year of Intel Parallel Studio XE. > Training and support from Colfax. > Order your platform today. http://sdm.link/xeonphi > _______________________________________________ > Apertium-stuff mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > _______________________________________________ > Apertium-stuff mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Apertium-stuff mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apertium-stuff
