Re: [Assam] Assam's Ancient Links with Mainland India

[mc mahant]

<<<can a provide any
realistic and workable solution to dispel the
legitimate feeling of mistrust among many of the
tribal people towards caste Hindu Assamese.>>>

<<<Legitimate feeling of mistrust>>>>

Wrong assumption again. Dying of self pity? Go to the offensive and show that the enemy is from outside.

Who is Caste Hindu. I am not. You are not. Who is ? Disown him .

Without a Sovereign Assam you cannot even start creating a proud,hardworking,focussed modern nation.

Come up with abetter model.Come out . Sensitive thinkers do not need repeated  requests.

mm

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]

---

From: Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: mayur bora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, mc mahant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: assam@assamnet.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Assam] Assam's Ancient Links with Mainland India
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 13:11:15 -0600

At 9:17 AM -0800 11/7/05, mayur bora wrote:

I can't agree more with Rajen da's comment on the
attitude of caste Hindu Assamese people towards the

tribes of Assam.

***  I join you there Mayur.  But what does that have to do with Assam's sovereignty aspirations?

BTW, caste Hindus' mistreatment of their fellow men was not limited to the  indigenous people of Assam alone, but fell on their own brethren who did not quite cut it as their equals.

Now take a wild guess on where these ideas came from, where they are still nurtured and is a major force in politics and governance? Did you hear about the Muslim village pillaged and several Muslims incinerated by mobs in UP, on the RUMOR that they slaughtered cows for celebrating ID, and turns out there was no truth to the rumors?

And if I am not mistaken, you submit yourself to that very culture in an abject display of servitude, don't you?

When I listed out the weaknesses of
Assamese people sometime back on assamnet, this was
the first weakness cited by me.

*** This is not a 'weakness' of ALL the people of Assam. It is of only a certain segment. Also, such ill-treatment and discrimination is possible only by those who wield POWER, be it political,be it economic, be it religious.

 I would be very happy
if Mahanta da-s (both CM and MM)can a provide any
realistic and workable solution to dispel the
legitimate feeling of mistrust among many of the
tribal people towards caste Hindu Assamese.

*** Why me or my brother? Why not YOU?  Why not Rajen?  But I have explained. If you don't agree, tell us why. If you could not understand, ask. I will be pleased to try and explain again. But to go about repeating your Mantra, without any explanation could paint an unflattering picture of your deliberative skills.

*** Are you attempting to suggest here that because of this CULTURAL mistrust between the indigenous people  and the caste Hindus, Assam has forfeited its sovereignty aspirations? Is that your best argument

a trump card on your stand against Assam's sovereignty?

If it is, you need to work on it much harder Mayur :-). Because the political fracture is not caused by cultural chauvinism of the Assamese, but purely because of (not) sharing of the spoils, even though the seeds of mistrust might have been planted in the past. In that it is the REIGNING political culture that is the real culprit, and it transcends caste/subcaste/religious boundaries with all having their fingers in the pot.

Furthermore, this culturally based Assamese chauvinism is on its way out anyway from what I hear. Is it not true? But under the operative system there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that it will be eradicated or even ameliorated.

 

>

When
people don't have any specific solution at sight, they
try to conjure up unattainable dreams and try hard to
sell them on the ephemeral strength of jugglery of
words or by promising some kind of panacea which is

>unrealistic and basically flawed.

*** That surely is the judgement of a superior intellect, rendering his verdict.

But can you explain:

        *** Why sovereignty aspirations are flawed?

        *** What are unattainable dreams, and should attainability be the

        first consideration or the only consideration of a dream?

        *** Who is attempting to peddle 'words' here, without any substance

        behind it? You or me?  Not that I like to rub it in, but could you

        answer the questions I raised about YOUR words in my last post? By

        avoiding a response did you or did you not prove that your words were

        the 'fwpwla', hollow ones, not mine :-)?

>Sovereighnty is not the panacea as they try hard to make us believe. Sooner we >understand this is better.

*** First of all, no one is seeking a panacea, except perhaps those who believe that their servitude is the panacea that will deliver them into a bright new world with handouts from their Mai-Baap at Hastinapur :-). But be that as it may, why don't YOU tell us WHY and WHAT sovereignty will NOT deliver for Assam?

When you do, you could claim a right to your conclusions and your august verdicts. Failing which it would be another round of 'potaan dhan', that might fool or delight those blind ducks, but few others.

cm :-)

When
people don't have any specific solution at sight, they
try to conjure up unattainable dreams and try hard to
sell them on the ephemeral strength of jugglery of
words or by promising some kind of panacea which is

unrealistic and basically flawed. Sovereighnty is not
the panacea as they try hard to make us believe.

Sooner we understand this is better.

Mayur

--- mc mahant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


---------------------------------

<<<<I would say these reflect the same caste Hindu
Assamese insensitive attitude towards the other sub
ethnic groups in Assam: "we know better what they
want."  Exactly it is for this Assamese attitude for
which Assamese lost not only the Nagas, Khasis and
Khamtis but also are loosing the Bodos, Mishings,
Karbis, Tiwangs, Ravas and all. I can cite many
examples of such insensitive remarks from caste Hindu
Assamese leaders from last 100 years Assam political
history.>>>>

Wrong at every thought.

We will create Family Republics but they will have to
print their own currency.

mm

mm



---------------------------------
From: "Barua25" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "mc mahant"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,<rajib[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CC: <assam@assamnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Assam] Assam's Ancient Links with
Mainland India
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 10:16:16 -0600


>Patently erroneeous assumptionS.

>Even Delhi stopped this scary lines .

>100% will agree to Sovereignty.
*** Here are too many assumptions for the question
which forms your answer, to hold any water. Allow me
to explain:



I would say these reflect the same caste Hindu
Assamese insensitive attitude towards the other sub
ethnic groups in Assam: "we know better what they
want."  Exactly it is for this Assamese attitude for
which Assamese lost not only the Nagas, Khasis and
Khamtis but also are loosing the Bodos, Mishings,
Karbis, Tiwangs, Ravas and all. I can cite many
examples of such insensitive remarks from caste Hindu
Assamese leaders from last 100 years Assam political
history.

O Assamee! when will you learn and grow?

RB

 

----- Original Message -----
From: mc mahant
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: assam@assamnet.org
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Assam's Ancient Links with
Mainland India







<<<Let us say Assam becomes sovereign. And the Bodos
of
Kokrajhar say no. The Bengali ghettos in Guwahati say
no. The Tiwas say no. The Cacharis say no. Will the
sovereign government of Assam hand over their lands to
those guys>>>>

Patently erroneeous assumptionS.

Even Delhi stopped this scary lines .

100%will agree to Sovereignty.

Nothing succeeds like success.

mm




---------------------------------
From: Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Rajib Das <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, mayur bora
<,Bartta">[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,Bartta Bistar
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, assam@assamnet.org
Subject: Re: [Assam] Assam's Ancient Links with
Mainland India

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 08:45:20 -0600

BLOCKQUOTE{padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;}DL{padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;}UL{padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;}OL{padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;}LI{padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;}Rajib:


At 8:04 AM -0800 11/4/05, Rajib Das wrote:
But C-Da, it is indeed an argument - following exactly
the lines you worked along :-)

*** First, for a product of the 21st century
desi-knowledge brigade, you disappoint me every time
you parrot my line of arguments and even words and
phrases, particularly when you so vehemently disagree
with them. You ought to have learnt by now that it is
very unproductive to fight the 'enemy' on its terms
:-). It is a sure-fire recipe for no getting anywhere,
if not for losing. A friendly suggestion, not merely
for these debates, but for life in general, is that it
is very important for one to seek out creative
answers, seek new paths to solving problems. Your

generation, with the backgrounds like some you have
had, ought to be able to deliver far more than echoing
those that you obviously do not agree with. It is like
the Hinduttwa brigades' tack of trying to be bad
clones of Jehadistas or Talibans, without their zeal.
A patently lost cause!






Let us say Assam becomes sovereign. And the Bodos of
Kokrajhar say no. The Bengali ghettos in Guwahati say
no. The Tiwas say no. The Cacharis say no. Will the
sovereign government of Assam hand over their lands to
those guys?


*** Here are too many assumptions for the question
which forms your answer, to hold any water. Allow me
to explain:


First, you have assumed that the smaller indigenous
groups of Assam, including the Bengali speaking ones
who have lived in geographical Assam for generations
will or most likely refuse to be a part of a sovereign
Assam. But that assumption could be legitimate ONLY if
you have explored WHY this situation has developed in
recent decades--of each indigenous group seeking to
carve out its own sovereign state, and concluded
credibly that it could NOT resolved  except, may only
be kept under check by brutal Indian military might
like  Saddam Hussein or the erstwhile USSR or the
PRofChina.


But that is a false assumption. For someone like
yourself with an IIM-MBA, I would have expected an
analysis of the reasons why this condition has
developed
in the NE, and exploration of solutions there for.


Not that the subject was never broached in this forum.
I have gotten hoarse explaining some of the reasons.
But those of you who do not accept them, and are
endowed with analytical skills and outlooks, should be
able to articulate your OWN assessments and lay out
the reasons for  it as you see them.


Once you have done that, you could look into how to
resolve the problem. I know
the answers conceptually and am convinced that a
sovereign Assam, and even a truly autonomous Assam
with REAL powers to re-orient its governance can
resolve these issues quite easily, because there is a
historical precedent for it. These people lived side
by side, in relative peace, interdependently, in for
centuries.


The above two combined, therefore, makes the analogy
of Assam's disaffections as a part of India very
different from the disaffections of the many
indigenous people of the NE , which is a PRODUCT of
the reigning Indian system of unaccountable,
dysfunctional governance steeped in the politics of
(not) sharing the spoils.




I understand your and other ethnic Bengalis' fears and
mistrusts of the Oxomiya
chauvinists. But that has changed dramatically over
the decades, even if not dead. But it will be the
easiest thing to overcome, when the intelligentsia of
the  communities could join forces, backed by a
functioning and trustworthy system of law-enforcement
and justice of a reformed Assam government,
considering the fact that the Assamese are the closest
to the Bengalis in every describable ethnic/cultural
traits among all the people of the South Asian
sub-continent (with the exception of our indigenous
Bodos, Karbis, Misings, Tiwas etc. who are
historically more closely related kin.)

So, put your thinking cap on and go at it. Don't try
to throw my arguments at me, when you don't agree.
That does not go anywhere  :-).


c-da
 






 And especially in our parts of the
country, if indeed you do handover Kokrajhar to
Bodoland, what about the Assamese there who want to be
a part of sovereign India? Or sovereign Assam for that
matter?

As to why Assam should be a part of sovereign India, I
will address it in a separate e-mail!



> > *** That is no argument. Assam is Assam and it's
> > wishes are not subject to
> > somebody else's choices, wishes or demands.
> >
> >
> > But let me ask you, one of the most avid
> > advocates of India, WHY it is good for India to
> > hold onto Assam, or how it is good for Assam to
> > continue to submit to Indian rule?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 8:01 AM -0800 11/3/05, Rajib Das wrote:
> > >There was never one India ruler that had ALL of
> > India
> > >under his belt. The Cholas were never ruled from

> > >Pataliputra as well. And Assam as it is known
> today
> > >was not ruled for ever from Pragjyotishpur.
> > >
> > >The basis of modern Indian nationhood from most
> > claims
> > >is the common cultural links across all the
> regions
> > of
> > >the country. Actually that is how most modern
> > nations
> > >(including those of Europe) came about.
> > >
> > >Going by this logic of who ruled whom, the Nagas
> > >should not have a country (or for that matter a
> > state
> > >even) - their territories were, for the most
> part,
> > >variously ruled by the Meitis and the Burmese.
> And
> > I
> > >am sure more than half the tribes of the north
> east
> > >did not have a king in their name.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--- Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >>  >In an antithesis to the rebels’ claim that
> > Assam
> > >>  >had never shared a common culture and history
> > >>  >with India before the Yandaboo >Treaty,
> Mamoni
> > >>  >pointed out that the Ramayana had always
> > >>  >influenced Assamese culture and society. An
> > >>  >acclaimed authority on the >epic, she said
> > >>  >Madhav Kandali, a 14th century Assamese poet,
> > >>  >was the first to re-tell the Ramayana in a
> > >>  >modern Indo-Aryan >language.
> > >>
> > >>  >Yet, though she underscored Assam’s
> inseparable
> > >>  >cultural link with mainland India, she
> skirted
> > a
> > >>  >question on Ulfa’s demand for a >sovereign
> > Assam
> > >>  >for obvious reasons. "Please don’t mix the
> > two,"
> > >>  >she said.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>  *** There is a very simple explanation here
> that
> > >>  many people tend to miss:
> > >>
> > >>  In spite of all the cultural and religious
> links
> > >>  with India, Assam never was a
> > >>  subject of Indian rulers.
> > >>
> > >>  That is how it ought to be. Keep the cultural
> > >>  links, the religious links and the trade
> links.
> > >>  They cannot be wiped out by an artificial line
> > on
> > >>  the ground. It is not like all of a sudden
> Assam
> > >>  will become a vassal state of China, or
> Myanmar,
> > >>  or B-Desh. But why force Indian rule on Assam?
> > >>  Let both flourish, side by side, in friendship
> > >>  and mutual co-operation, like the two did over
> > >>  millenia, for the greater good of all.
> > >>
> > >>  cm
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>  At 7:42 AM +0000 11/3/05, Bartta Bistar wrote:
> > >>  >Guwahati, Thursday, November 3, 2005
> > >>  >
> > >>  >
> > >>  >Epics linked Assam with India culturally
> > >>  >
> > >>  >http://www.assamtribune.com/ 3 November 2005
> > >>  >By A Staff Reporter
> > >>  >  GUWAHATI, Nov 2 – The Ramayana and the
> > >>  >Mahabharata – the two Indian epics – have
> > linked
> > >>  >Assam with the rest of India culturally in an
> > >>  >inseparable manner. Assam has a vibrant
> > cultural
> > >>  >tradition that speaks of its cultural link
> with
> > >>  >the mainland. Its cultural relation with the
> > >>  >mainland is very strong and old. There were
> > some> > >>  >smaller paths across the Himalayas,

which
> > served
> > >>  >as the channels for surface communication
> among
> > >>  >the scholars of the State and from other
> parts
> > >>  >of India so far as maintaining mutual
> relations
> > >>  >was concerned.
> > >>  >
> > >>  >These were the observations made by noted
> > >>  >litterateur Dr Mamoni Raisom (Indira)
> Goswami,
> > >>  >who has now been acting as a mediator between
>
=== message truncated ===



               
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one
click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com



>_______________________________________________
>assam mailing list
>assam@assamnet.org
>http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org






---------------------------------


_______________________________________________
assam mailing list
assam@assamnet.org
http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org


> _______________________________________________

> assam mailing list
> assam@assamnet.org
>
http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
>



              
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com

_______________________________________________
assam mailing list
assam@assamnet.org
http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org