C'da >*** Surely YOUR support or for that matter of others in your camp is NOT >what ULFA has been surviving all these decades. Obviously it is from the >support of those who you do not see or prefer not to recognize when you >see them. Thus your definition of ULFA's 'sincerity' is quite irrelevant to >the resolution of the conflict.
yes, the ulfa has been around for a while. Now who is giving it arms, and intel - the Bangladeshi Intel and the Pakis who gives the money - well some give, while from others the ulfa "taxes" and there is always abduction as a revenue source. within the next few years, they wouldn't have to pretend to be "patriots" >IF you and others are SEEKING a resolution >to the conflict, then the >question would be WHAT are you contributing to >its resolution? I would suggest, give up the weapons, and come for talks, to arrive at some levels of compensation for the low/mid-level level misled cadres from the GOI - the cream should be be ready for prosecution according to the Constitution of India and pay the piper. But then - thats just old me. :) --Ram On 5/15/07, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Ram: > > > >All you are reduced to doing is taunting ULFA or ULFA sympathizers, or > >mouthing > >off bravado-laden but meaningless slogans. One would think >something is > >missing here. > > >Yes, that does happen, like it does often with the GOI/GOA and India. > >But, I have often said that if the ulfa or some other group was really, > >really >fighting for a cause, and with all sincereity, I would be the first > >one to at >least give them the respect they deserve (even if I do not agree > >with their >cause). > > > > > *** Surely YOUR support or for that matter of others in your camp is NOT what > ULFA has been surviving all these decades. Obviously it is from the support > of those who you do not see or prefer not to recognize when you see them. > Thus your definition of ULFA's 'sincerity' is quite irrelevant to the > resolution of the conflict. IF you and others are SEEKING a resolution to the > conflict, then the question would be WHAT are you contributing to its > resolution? > > > Again IF you believe the arguments that you proffer here, a regurgitation of > the same old same old, or recommendations of JS or the 'wah-wah' from behind > the bushes from whomever or the taunting of ULFA would be bringing the > conflict to an end, then I have to guess you have something else coming :-). > > > BTW, the label was an illustration, to drive home a point, to illustrate how > it does nothing. > > > c-da > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 9:57 AM -0600 5/15/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote: > O' C'da > > Sorry to have you rankled so much - not my intention, but some of lousy my > traits just slip by. > > The labels revolution, or revolutionary are not inventions of JS, me or you. > The ULFA and many of its sympathizers use these terms whenever they feel its > good to use them. Even the ulfa "newsletter" freely uses it. > > The insurgency they mount is often confused with a revoltion by some people. > So, that is why it is important to separate issues here. We don;t want to > groups (which don't deserve it) an "aura" status do we? > > >Imagine me assigning a label on you as, say, an Indian patriot > > C'da - is this discussion about me? Didn't realize that. But if you feel > better, > you could always label the GOI/Desi-demokracy, and anything else (if you > haven't already). And if that doesn't work, feel free to label me - these > days, I have grown such a tough skin (like our Rhinos there) - nothing seems > to stick. :) :) > > > >*** What you see as looting, could be presented by ULFA as TAXING, tax that > >the payer does not pay to what is fancied to be the 'legitimate' > >>government. What the two-book-keeping entities do not pay to GoI, goes to > >ULFA, who employs those left unemployed by India's > >rob-the-poor->masses-to-enrich-the-few-economy, keeps the economy running by > >buying what it needs to feed the soldiers. I hope you read the World Bank > >>report on black-money's corrosive effect on the Indian economy. Further > >more on the looting front, how do you see the Indian elected reps' role, > >>in looting the treasury? > > Here, there are a couple of things that tell me my edumacation is wrong. > > One is that "tax" is usually levied by an authority (government civic body > etc). It is so levied, so that things that they do with the money collected > will supposedly help the community as a whole. > I never knew a tax could also be used to line pockets for personal use (and > not much else) > > Two. Yes, there are many bureaucrats/babus/ministers in the GOI and GOA who > will rob th tax-paying public blind. But your justification has really caught > me unawares (to say the least). > > You imply that ulfa collects money from tax-cheats who don't pay their share > to the GOI. > It then takes that excess money, employs the unemeployed, sends them to > battle royal (from whence they often don't come back). > > Now, that is something. The GOI, I am sure is also glad that the ulfa is > helping it keep these tax-cheaters in line. > > > Further more on the looting front, how do you see the Indian elected reps' > > role, in looting the treasury? > > Very bad, rank bad. So, your solution to this vexing corruption problem is > what, create another corrupt organization to emulate the dregs of GOI? But > this time, make sure this orgnization is also violent? > > >Had Assam Govt. leaders NOT attempted to prove that uLFA had no teeth by > >putting these children of Dhemaji in harms way, > >in spite of warnings by ULFA not to hold those parades, this tragedy could > >not have happened. > > C'da - I don't know whether to laugh or cry here? You are telling us, that > since the GOA DID NOT follow ULFA's dikats, the children, men and women of > Assam have to pay the price. After all - what is the Govt.? - it is ALSO > made up of the kerani, that LP school mastor or the corner traffic policeman. > These people unfortunately also have children. And if alll these people and > the GOA don't follow them dikats - then Offf with their heads? > And since the ulfa has the guns and bombs, the GOA will of course have to > tell its employees and the public to stay away whenever the ulfa demands it. > > >Do you see a difference between GoI and ULFA? > > Yes, I do and so do most other people. We see, that however bad the GOA/GOI > turns out to be, it is still whom the public at large elected (even in a > flawed system). And most of all the GOI has the legal and legitimate standing > - that organizations like the ulfa don't. Imagine the ULFA running as a Govt. > in Assam. If they don't like you - they just get rid of you, if you more > wealth than some its members, they will just come at night and demand you pay > them. And of course, you dare not question them. I know, you would love that > kind of govt. setup:):) > For the rest of us, we prefer democracies - even if they are not perfect. > > >All you are reduced to doing is taunting ULFA or ULFA sympathizers, or > >mouthing > >off bravado-laden but meaningless slogans. One would think >something is > >missing here. > > Yes, that does happen, like it does often with the GOI/GOA and India. > But, I have often said that if the ulfa or some other group was really, > really fighting for a cause, and with all sincereity, I would be the first > one to at least give them the respect they deserve (even if I do not agree > with their cause). > > Today, we have a scenario, where such a group is often defended on gounds > such as: > > Well - there are other corrupt people too > Well - the army also kills people, so let these groups also kill - you know, > more the merrier. > Well - they are brave, but they do need to save their own skins (run away, > and live to sneak up and fight another day) > Well- they do not have any plan now or for forever for Assam. And if they do > - its a big secret > > Take care, > > --Ram > > > > > On 5/15/07, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > Ram: > > > >First of, the ulfa cannot really be considered "revolionaries". A revolution > >(Like the French etc) are a >mass-scale uprising of some sort against an > >establishment. The ulfa (as some would like to elevate) is >nowhere close to > >that lable > > > > > *** It was not *I* who assigned that label and then attempted to demolish it. > You can or JS can or any old fool can arbitrarily assign a label to anyone, > then demolish it, couldn't they? But what VALUE would that have? > > > Imagine me assigning a label on you as, say, an Indian patriot, and then go > on to tell the world that you are not an Indian to begin with, that you are > an American. That you claim you are are an Assamese, but by parental > ethnicity you are really a Tamil. > > > But what value would such an argument have ? Would I be wrong in surmising > that it would be zero, zit, nada? > > > You catch my drift? > > > > > > >And yes, C'da why is these "home-grown" revoltionaries hell bent on killing > >and looting from Assamese people (and don't forget Dhemaji) - now there was > >a great example of your revolutionaries giving up blood & treasure (of > >course, it matters little that blood spilled was not theirs). > > > > > *** What you see as looting, could be presented by ULFA as TAXING, tax that > the payer does not pay to what is fancied to be the 'legitimate' government. > What the two-book-keeping entities do not pay to GoI, goes to ULFA, who > employs those left unemployed by India's > rob-the-poor-masses-to-enrich-the-few-economy, keeps the economy running by > buying what it needs to feed the soldiers. I hope you read the World Bank > report on black-money's corrosive effect on the Indian economy. Further more > on the looting front, how do you see the Indian elected reps' role, in > looting the treasury? > > > They are WORSE offenders, because they steal wearing that robe of > respectability as the people's reps., on the sly. But I see no outrage in > that from the 'fair and balanced crowd',or demands to send them to prison, or > to send their sympathizers to prison. In fact I will not be surprised if the > scions of some of these thieves in white are not right here amongst us urging > ULFA sympathizers to be sent to prison. We surely know that most everybody > who holds some important position in Indian govts. have a sopn or daughter or > a close relative in some western countries as immigrant, 'green-card holder' > or citizens or H1Bs. So much for their faith in their nation. > > > > > Yes, Dhemaji is a stigma to ULFA. They should not have done that, IF it WAS > indeed ULFA who did that deliberately. But parties to warfare do terrible > things, sometimes willfully, at other times inadvertently. IF I remember > correctly you took great pride in the Indian military's repeated OOpses on > its civilian killings in fake encounters, as if those were slips, that never > happened before, or never will in the future. > > > Do you see a difference between GoI and ULFA? And if GOI can do no better > than ULFA, where does its apologists get that halo of 'holier-than-thou', > to sport? > > > In fact GOI and its stooges, Assam govts. past or present have actively > contributed to such mindless violence. Had Assam Govt. leaders NOT attempted > to prove that uLFA had no teeth by putting these children of Dhemaji in harms > way, in spite of warnings by ULFA not to hold those parades, this tragedy > could not have happened. Not to justify it however. But I don't recall > hearing from the 'fair and balanced crowd' a word on WHO was EXPLOITING > these children. > > > Then there is this other thing that the thoughtful should not avoid > considering: When the Indian army operations lead to separating the > leadership from the operating elements, it creates an environment of private > entrepreneurship by inexperienced and poorly educated rank-and-file manning > the battlefronts. How do you know that it was sanctioned by ULFA leadership, > and not impromptu action by someone at location? That is war for you. > > > > > >We have all been hearing about this big cause for a long time. Then why is > >that the whole of Assam >have NOT joined and or signed on the dotted line? > >Do you know why? > > > *** Of course I do. In fact anyone able to reason ought to: That is because > the establishment is not going to give up its rights to the feeding trough. > And GoI has been pumping unaccounted for billions to keep that sector on its > side. Never mind the rest. I remember Chittaranjan's assurance that a > reasoned public dialogue on the need for Assam's sovereignty is not > impossible in Assam media. But he could not get my posts aired in Assam, > could he? I also tried, but could not. The fear of reprisals from the govt. > is present and powerful. > > > > > > >>That is how it works in a violent CONFLICT. That is WHY it is a violent > >>CONFLICT. > > > > > Whew! Now that somehow makes us all feel better. Of course, all the people of > Assam gave the green signal for ULFA to go violent and now it (the ulfa) acts > as the sole torch bearer for God & country. > > > > > *** That was NOT meant to make you feel better Ram. It was to point out what > you could not see, even though you it is staring at your face. > > > > > >One question, if these 'revs' are NOT even able to fight from their home > >base (that they are forced to go >to another country to do so), what odds do > >you, as a pragmatist, give them for any kind of win? > > > *** I am not a military strategist, unlike say JS, who obviously knows better > than the Indian military brass > past and present, who have said over and over again that it is not a battle > they can win and that only a political solution will end the conflict. > Perhaps JS will explain how ULFA can be defeated militarily. Or how their > sympathizers should be rounded up and thrown in prison. Maybe that Congress > MP who recommended that for those who calls for a referendum, like MR > Goswami, could explain that --or the need for his vehement back-tracking > after that. Do you think the ULFA sympathizers were terrified of that threat > in Assam ? > > > > > >One question, if these 'revs' are NOT even able to fight from their home > >base (that they are forced to go >to another country to do so), what odds do > >you, as a pragmatist, give them for any kind of win? > > > *** I understand your quandary as I do of those others in your camp. All you > are reduced to doing is taunting ULFA or ULFA sympathizers, or mouthing off > bravado-laden but meaningless slogans. One would think something is > missing here. Question is WHAT? I know the answer, but I will let you figure > that out by yourself . I like to think you are eminently capable of. And when > you do, maybe you will be kind enough to share that with those in your camp > who are not that well equipped :-). > > > Take care. > > > c-da > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 7:40 PM -0600 5/14/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote: > > C'da > > > > > >*** Is this for a fact or a demonstration of profound ignorance of modern > >history? > > >Would you like to explain? > > > > Let me try! > > > > First of, the ulfa cannot really be considered "revolionaries". A revolution > (Like the French etc) are a mass-scale uprising of some sort against an > establishment. The ulfa (as some would like to elevate) is nowhere close to > that lable > > So, in that context, modern revolutions have always been about "protecting > the masses" against tyrants. In the Assam context, can you give some stark > examples where such a thing has happened? And yes, C'da why is these > "home-grown" revoltionaries hell bent on killing and looting from Assamese > people (and don't forget Dhemaji) - now there was a great example of your > revolutionaries giving up blood & treasure (of course, it matters little that > blood spilled was not theirs). > > > > > I suspect you and JS intended SOME of the ULFA leaders, didn't you? > > Assuming that was what it was, let me ask you this: If it were you, Ram > > >or JS, in the position of those ULFA leaders, what would you do? Play > > STUPID and get arrested or get erased in some encounter, real or fake? Is > > >this some kind of a question to make the ULFA leaders look like > > 'cowards'? If it is, do you think it is working? > > > > If the 'leaders' were holed up in B'desh and making war plans/strategic plans > against the big, bad ogre called India, it may have carried some semblence of > resptability - but to hole up elsewhere, goad/egg other to the battles, and > all the while amass huge personal wealth, (as reported by the US think tank - > Stratfor. com), getting help from BD intel and ISI (who will just as easily > slit an Assamese throat as they would an "Indian") is beyond me. > > > > So, now this "holing up" in Bangladesh is really a strategic plan - could > have knocked me out with a feather! How could I have missed that > > > > >First off, if 'THEY' were residing in a foreign land, why is it that India > >and Indians claim > > >ULFA is fighting in Assam? Isn't that a contradiction? > > > > I am just trying here - don't know exactly what JS meant. > > > > Why is this a contradiction - the leaders stay in BD - making the big war > plans, while the "low-level" cadres do the dirty job in Assam. > > > > >*** Another abjectly dumb question again. These are people fighting and > >dying for a cause. > > >You may not agree with their cause. > > > > We have all been hearing about this big cause for a long time. Then why is > that the whole of Assam have NOT joined > > and or signed on the dotted line? Do you know why? > > > > >That is how it works in a violent CONFLICT. That is WHY it is a violent > >CONFLICT. > > > > Whew! Now that somehow makes us all feel better. Of course, all the people of > Assam gave the green signal for ULFA to go violent and now it (the ulfa) acts > as the sole torch bearer for God & country. > > > > One question, if these 'revs' are NOT even able to fight from their home base > (that they are forced to go to another country to do so), what odds do you, > as a pragmatist, give them for any kind of win? > > > > Even the country these people take refuge in (BD) is not able to take on the > bad boy on the block (India) what are the chances for the "revs". Do you > think perhaps, that there is no fun for them to end this 'insurgency > Kamadhenu'. Whatever will they do if this all ends - Work for a living? Good > grief ! :) > > > > > --Ram > > > > > > > > On 5/14/07, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Ram: > > > > > Just out of curiosity: > > > > > >Nowhere in the history of any struggle have the revolutionaries > killed their own people in one hand and talked of fighting for peace, > > > > > > > > > > *** Is this for a fact or a demonstration of profound ignorance of modern > history? Would you like to explain? > > > > > > > > > > > >- Why do they reside in a foreign country, the population of which is > > > > >creating economic and social disorder in our state? > > > > > *** This is another bright question no doubt and someone of my caliber would > be hard-pressed to answer. But since you press the point , allow me to take a > shot ( pun intended): > > > > > First off, if 'THEY' were residing in a foreign land, why is it that > India and Indians claim > > ULFA is fighting in Assam? Isn't that a contradiction? > > > > > I suspect you and JS intended SOME of the ULFA leaders, didn't you? > Assuming that > > was what it was, let me ask you this: If it were you, Ram or JS, in > the position of those > > ULFA leaders, what would you do? Play STUPID and get arrested or get > erased in some > > encounter, real or fake? Is this some kind of a question to make the > ULFA leaders look > > like 'cowards'? If it is, do you think it is working? > > > > > If you asked me it is a pretty dumb question, really. And dumber > expectation. > > > > > > > > >- They seek whereabouts of missing ULFA members, what about all the > > > > >people they have killed. Are they going to give the reasons ? > > > > > > > > > > *** Another abjectly dumb question again. These are people fighting and dying > for a cause. You may not agree with their cause. That is how it works in a > violent CONFLICT. That is WHY it is a violent CONFLICT. One side does not > agree with the other and neither siude is asbout to play dead. Under the > circumstances, expecting an antagonist here to play NEUTRAL ( or UNBIASED to > echo the favorite kharkhowa/desi terminology) demonstrates an absence of an > ability to reason like an adult with ordinary intelligence. But I have > trouble believing that about JS and I know you do not fit that mold. So what > is the explanation Ram? > > > > > Anyone expecting an answer to questions like that would merely be > demonstrating their living in denial, unable to accept the widely prevalent > and discernible truths that surround them like so nmany Indians seem to do. > > > > > I hate to see you act so disoriented a desi, Ram :-) > > > > > c-da > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 1:00 PM -0600 5/14/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote: > > > > C'da > > > > > > > >Why would anyone want to go pick a fight with someone who would proclaim > >"--- > > > > There is another way to look at it. Perhaps, one could address this utter > frustration with ulfa's antics and the 'ulfa did nor wrong' crowd. The > recommendations from JS may be strong, but there is a lot of truth in what he > says about the unstable situation in the state created by ULFA - and the fact > that the state (as it is overburdened with other problems) is now having face > the "insurgency" problem. > > > > Why can't ulfa sympathizers answers at least some of the questions like JS > asks/comments: > > > > Nowhere in the history of any struggle have the revolutionaries > killed their own people in one hand and talked of fighting for peace, > > > > - Why do they reside in a foreign country, the population of which is > > creating economic and social disorder in our state? > > > - They seek whereabouts of missing ULFA members, what about all the > > people they have killed. Are they going to give the reasons ? > > > > These and other questions have been asked before - and we have YET to > receive prompt, short (no spin) ansers > > So, just Ignoring, the "punishment" as JS demnds is really NOT a solution. > Why can't someone just answer to the questions. > > > > -Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/14/07, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >JS has thrown the gauntlet, now its up to them to pick it up :) > > > > > *** It could be considered such only when there is even a modicum of > SUBSTANCE or realism behind a charge. Why would anyone want to go pick a > fight with someone who would proclaim "---The only solution left, I believe, > is to eliminate every ULFA member and put all their sympathizers behind bars. > " It would be like challenging an Indian who would put a man on the Moon in > 2010; or recommend that all those who do not agree with him be banished to > 'koliyapani'; wouldn't it? > > > > > > c-da > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:49 AM -0600 5/14/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote: > > Hehehe C'da, > > > > > > > > > I knew that would catch your attention. What JS says maybe an extreme > outburst, probably from someone young - but that is how many of the younger > generation in Assam feel. What kind of answers do you have for them - or do > you think their feelings ought to just brushed aside? > > > > >But, I will really like to see some die-hard sympathizers put JS in >his > >place :) :). > > > > C'da - you are expecting too much out of me. > > JS, right or wrong, has made a stand. Now, the ball is in the other court. > People like me will sit this out for a while atleast and see what happens. At > some point, I will come in to defend JS if he needs it - I have a feeling, he > won't. He has done good so far. > > > > >If audacity and the willingness to vent -- whatever that might be, ?are all > >it takes to resolve problems of this kind, then there would >have been no > >problem left in Assam , not to mention India. > > > > No, they are not - but on this net, its a rare commodity. > > > > >instead of passing the buck to them despicable ULFA >sympathizers, who will > >only make the issue more muddy :-)? > > > > Me? Are they turning to me now? Something is really rotten in Denmark:), and > no, I am not passing the buck here - as I ain't no sympathazer. I would > expect them sympathizers to be up in arms even if they circle the wagons and > make it muddier:) > > > > JS has thrown the gauntlet, now its up to them to pick it up :) > > > > --Ram > > > On 5/14/07, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Ram: > > > > > Saw your comments to Sharma's anguished outburst with his wishful > recommendations and conclusions. > > > > > Good that Sharma is letting off steam. But as an informed and experienced > NRA, I would have hoped to see you explaining to Sharma the profound flaws in > his line of thinking, even though I know you are unable to free your own > thought processes entirely from a blind devotion to the derelict Indian state > :-). > > > > > If audacity and the willingness to vent -- whatever that might be, are all it > takes to resolve problems of this kind, then there would have been no problem > left in Assam , not to mention India. > > > > > So, what is missing? > > > > > > > Don't you think you, as someone more knowledgeable, and more experienced than > obviously Sharma is,; have an obligation to help him see things in a more > mature light; instead of passing the buck to them despicable ULFA > sympathizers, who will only make the issue more muddy :-)? > > > > > c-da > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 6:04 AM -0600 5/14/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote: > > Welcome JS to the Assamnet. That was a pretty straight forward post, if there > was one, in these forums in a long time. I welcome that fresh air of audacity > :) > > > > > > > > > > > There are a few die-hard ulfa supporters and sympathizers in this forum too. > I am sure some of them will respond to your post, and so will wait to see > waht they write. > > > > --Ram > > > > > > On 5/14/07, Jyotirmoy Sharma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > After reading about the endless sequence of bomb blasts that this > terrorist outfit is causing throughout Assam I cannot see how a > sensible person can ever think of negotiating with such a terrorist > > outfit. The only solution left, I believe, is to eliminate every ULFA > > member and put all their sympathizers behind bars. Those living > > abroad and found assisting the outfit in any way should be barred > from entering Assam. > > Nowhere in the history of any struggle have the revolutionaries > killed their own people in one hand and talked of fighting for peace, > prosperity and freedom on the other. What is even more surprising is > that there are groups(read PCPIA and others) who have openly become > the spokesperson of the outfit. They are never short in condemning > when the Army kills a terrorist but hardly raise a voice when > innocent people are getting slaughtered in their bomb blasts. Yes, it > is true that the Army has killed and tortured innocent people in > Assam but then the Army wouldn't be there in Assam if we didn't have > the disease in the first place. > > Some questions which a pro-ULFA supporter may care to answer: > > > - Why do they reside in a foreign country, the population of which is > creating economic and social disorder in our state? > - Why don't they fight the Indian Army but hide in their holes when > confronted? Why do human rights become a big issue when their members > are killed and not when innocents are getting maimed and killed by > their bomb attacks at public places? > - Why do they plant bombs in public places and kill innocent people? > - They seek whereabouts of missing ULFA members, what about all the > people they have killed. Are they going to give the reasons ? > > This problem has gone on for too long. If Punjab militancy could be > eliminated I don't see why Assam should be different. Assam is better > off with the freedom we have under India than under these terrorists > called ULFA. > > Jyotirmoy > > > _______________________________________________ > assam mailing list > assam@assamnet.org > http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > assam mailing list > assam@assamnet.org > http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
