C-da,
Sitting in US for long perhaps you have forgotten that there
already exists 27% quotas in govt jobs and educational institutions
in India -- unlike USA. Now the demand is that the already
privileaged be included in this quota --which is not justified.
Umesh
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
U:
>In most cases it is the politicians (of mostly opposition
parties) who start such mass protests - and >demand for reservation
-- thats what happened in Rajasthan before the last state elections
when the >high-caste powerful groups demanded reservation for
themselves - to suppport any party in elections- >nd got it --under
current BJP rule.
*** And since it was started by politicians it is NOT legitimate?
That is HOW democracy works Umesh. People look to their
representatives, elected or even unelected . Usually they are
politicians. But BEFORE they instigate their flocks to take to the
streets usually there are signs of a trouble brewing. It does not
come like hurricane Katrina in a week's notice. A DEMOCRATIC
government would usually respond to a mass disaffection brewing.
They would NOT stonewall, or pretend they hear or see anything.
And if they do, they should be held ACCOUNTABLE, which is an alien
word in desi-demokrasy.
So they would make unreasonable demands, won't they?
ALL demands are UNREASONABLE when there is no desire or intent to
give anything up. But that is not how democracy works. If it is
patently unreasonable, or unconstitutional, they should be
adjudicated in a RELIABLE ( one that cannot be bought by the powers
in control or the highest briber) court of law. Otherwise there
will have to be a GIVE and TAKE.
c-da
At 8:21 AM -0700 6/1/07, umesh sharma wrote:
C-da,
How can you be so naive. In most cases it is the politicians (of
mostly opposition parties) who start such mass protests - and
demand for reservation -- thats what happened in Rajasthan before
the last state elections when the high-caste powerful groups
demanded reservation for themselves - to suppport any party in
elections- and got it --under current BJP rule.
Umesh
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ram:
All that is fine.
Conflicts arise from many different reasons. Economics is one. But
it does not somehow make it
out-of-bounds for resolution thru a political process , with
adequate governmental response to the issues, when they begin to
surface. That would prevent it from degenerating into violent
protests, like it has in Rajasthan, like it did in Assam nearly
thirty years ago. Other examples are well detailed in Mohan
Guruswamy's Terminating with Extreme Prejudice! forwarded by mcm
this morning.
The fact is that the UNACCOUNTABLE Indian govt. with democratic
pretensions, is little more than a fiefdom of powerful groups and
entrenched interests, who REFUSE to address these conflicts when
they begin to appear, let them fester, and when violence erupts,
sends out the army to shoot them down. Indian courts, long
dysfunctional and corrupt to the core, further bogged down by an
incredible 30 year back log, are thoroughly useless as a means of
conflict resolution to the point that Indian intelligentsia does
not even think of it as a possible INSTITUTION of DEMOCRACY at
their disposal: A fact demonstrated in this forum routinely by some
of the country's most educated and informed, including High-court
advocates, and NRAs living in developed democracies for decades.
Poverty and paucity of resources as an excuse for an absence of
the attitude of responsiveness to constituents' concerns and an
absence of functioning conflict resolution institutions in what is
advertised as a democracy, does NOT FLY. And to suggest that these
conflicts can turn violent leading to military or police firings
and killing of their own people by the dozens at a time, routinely,
BECAUSE India is DEMOCRATIC is an appalling spin Ram . You are
doing a disservice to your fellow Indians by telling them such
bizarre stories about what a democracy is :-).
c-da
At 8:31 AM -0600 6/1/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da
>*** That is about the most convoluted explanation of democracy
and egregious spin on India's behavior
>I have heard so far Ram.
I am trying to differentiate here: The Gujars and the Meenas are
clashing in Rajasthan - basically one group does not want the other
to get ST status (while they, themselves should). Without going
into the details who should and who shouldn't, the basic
underpinning of this whole this is Economics.
Neither the Gujars or the Meenas (IMHO) would be so concerned of
their Scheduled Tribe Status if there were jobs and other resources
aplenty. After all - the 6th Schedule is only in the Constitution -
and whether it is or isn't the Gujars and the Meenas will remain
whatever they have been - Tribes or non-Tribes. So, why the big
rushing need to be included in the 6th - Jobs and oppturnities.
A mjor cause to most of India's problems (including ULFA ) can be
traced to economics, wants and needs, as opposed to "we are
separate cultural identity" argument per se. I would even go a bit
further - sometimes even "demands" for the preservation cultural
identities ties back to economics. Hence, such cultural identities
prove to be a boon - hence, Marathis/Bodos/Assamese or in this case
Gujars or Meenas form numbers to jostle for better economic
benefits. The other thing to fact is political power - ie.
politicians play one group against the other for such power.
--Ram
On 6/1/07, Chan Mahanta
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>The right to bandhs, hartals, strikes are possible in India
because its a democracy and they happen >because there is NOT
enough to go around. It does not happen in the US because most of
the most >common things have already been met.
*** That is about the most convoluted explanation of democracy and
egregious spin on India's behavior I have heard so far Ram.
At 10:34 AM -0600 5/31/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
Oh! I forgot, C'da
LA riots (after the OJ Simpson thing), NY Black out . maybe I am
forgetting a few.
But you are right, the US has far fewer of such riots than India or
most of the up & coming economies do. And that can be attributed,
in general, to the limited resources, and too many people these
countries have.
If some of the countries have democracies, there are
demonstrations, protests etc - which often go haywire. If they are
NOT democratic then they can be quelled swiftly.
The right to bandhs, hartals, strikes are possible in India because
its a democracy and they happen because there is NOT enough to go
around. It does not happen in the US because most of the most
common things have already been met.
--Ram
On 5/31/07, Chan Mahanta
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In the US, we have several examples (which C'da will be glad to
expand on, I am sure).
*** Yes, but we are comparing apples and oranges.
>Elian Gonzalez
** It was case of enforcement of a court order. No one was killed
if I am not mistaken.
>Ruby Ridge
*** It was a case of criminal kidnapping.
>David Koresh
*** Again a criminal case of confinement and refusal to submit to a
court order, leading to a police/paramiltary raid, to defy which
the inmates of the commune committed mass suicide.
None of these were anything akin to political /social disaffections
, ignored by authorities, leading to demonstrations that turned
into rioting terminated by military /police firing against their
OWN PEOPLE.
At 8:29 AM -0600 5/31/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
Just to butt in here a bit.
In the US, we have several examples (which C'da will be glad to
expand on, I am sure).
Elian Gonzalez
Ruby Ridge
David Koresh
In the last two, (it wasn't the US Army) but paramil. forces -
people got killed
On 5/31/07, SANDIP DUTTA <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Still waiting to hear what happens in similar situations in US of A
- say like if some African Americans were to protest again over
Hurricane Katrina? Maybe we should learn and implement similar
policies here.
Do they get 125 yrs jail...or Guantanamo Bay?.......or there's
political settlement?
Rgds,
Sandip
----- Original Message ----
From: umesh sharma <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: SANDIP DUTTA < <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Chan
Mahanta <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<mailto:assam@assamnet.org>assam@assamnet.org
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:56:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujar>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujar
it confirms my opinion that Gujjars are not that backward -- in
comparison to the tribes /castes who are in SC ST category --
nobody oppresses them - but they are maig this demand after upper
caste have got 10% reservation in Rajasthan and Jats -another
dominant warrior caste (rules Alwar and Haryana) has been included
in OBC category by former Congress govt. of Rajasthan
Umesh
SANDIP DUTTA <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Think deeper" - he he!
How much deep info did you have about Meenas, Gujjars etc in
Rajasthan? - before you read the BBC report?
And you already decided it was a legitimate demand?
BTW, you didnt answer what happens in the US of A.
Rgds,
Sandip
----- Original Message ----
From: Chan Mahanta <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: SANDIP DUTTA < <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
Chandan Mahanta <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <mailto:assam@assamnet.org>assam@assamnet.org
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
Sandip:
You need to to think a little DEEPER!
WHY did RIOTING have to take place to begin with? Did these people
wake up one fine morning and decided, : Heck, things are dull, let
us go burn some buses today and cut-off policemen's limbs?
Think about it and come back with your questions again.
sd
At 6:06 AM -0700 5/31/07, SANDIP DUTTA wrote:
Hello Sondon Da,
As far as I understand, police and RAF are meant to maintain law &
order and prevent rioters getting out of hand. Thats their job.
Army is called in only when situation gets out of control. Same
approach is applied everywhere. Local Admin calls in the army. In
this case, Rajasthan police had no experience handling anything of
this kind in the last many decades.
May we know what approach is taken towards rioters who use violence
as a form of protest and then try justifying it - in the
worlds greatest demokrasy - your home, the United EStates of
Amrika? I mean people who damage govt. property, possibly kill and
maim others and try to undermine state authority?
Rgds,
SD
----- Original Message ----
From: Chandan Mahanta <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
To: <mailto:assam@assamnet.org>assam@assamnet.org
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:59:35 AM
Subject: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
Chandan Mahanta saw this story on the BBC News website and thought you
should see it.
** Message **
This is typical of the Indian state's conflict resolution program,
which has not changed in sixty years after freedom.
** Army deployed after India riots **
Troops are deployed in India's Rajasthan state after 14 people are
killed in clashes over government job quotas.
<
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/6703133.stm>http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/6703133.stm >
** BBC Daily E-mail **
Choose the news and sport headlines you want - when you want them, all
in one daily e-mail
< <http://www.bbc.co.uk/email>http://www.bbc.co.uk/email >
** Disclaimer **
The BBC is not responsible for the content of this e-mail, and
anything written in this e-mail does not necessarily reflect the
BBC's views or opinions. Please note that neither the e-mail
address nor name of the sender have been verified.
If you do not wish to receive such e-mails in the future or want to
know more about the BBC's Email a Friend service, please read our
frequently asked questions.
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/4162471.stm>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/4162471.stm
_______________________________________________
assam mailing list
<mailto:assam@assamnet.org>assam@assamnet.org
<http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org>http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48253/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC>Internet
in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48226/*http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php>Get
the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of
spyware protection. _______________________________________________
assam mailing list
<mailto:assam@assamnet.org>assam@assamnet.org
<http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org>http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
Umesh Sharma
Washington D.C.
1-202-215-4328 [Cell]
Ed.M. - International Education Policy
Harvard Graduate School of Education,
Harvard University,
Class of 2005
<http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html>http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html
(Edu info)
<http://hbswk.hbs.edu/>http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)
<http://www.gse.harvard.edu/iep>www.gse.harvard.edu/iep (where the
above 2 are used )
<http://jaipurschool.bihu.in/>http://jaipurschool.bihu.in/
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/uk/taglines/yahoo_com/messenger/*http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com>Yahoo!
Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/uk/taglines/yahoo_com/messenger/*http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com>calling
worldwide with voicemail
Get the Yahoo! toolbar and
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48225/*http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php>be
alerted to new email wherever you're surfing.
_______________________________________________
assam mailing list
<mailto:assam@assamnet.org>assam@assamnet.org
<http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org>http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
_______________________________________________
assam mailing list
assam@assamnet.org
http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
Umesh Sharma
Washington D.C.
1-202-215-4328 [Cell]
Ed.M. - International Education Policy
Harvard Graduate School of Education,
Harvard University,
Class of 2005
http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)
www.gse.harvard.edu/iep (where the above 2 are used )
http://jaipurschool.bihu.in/
Try
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/gmail/see_difference/*http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48525/*http://uk.mail.yahoo.com>Yahoo!
Mail now with Unlimited Storage and see the difference.
Umesh Sharma
Washington D.C.
1-202-215-4328 [Cell]
Ed.M. - International Education Policy
Harvard Graduate School of Education,
Harvard University,
Class of 2005
http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)
www.gse.harvard.edu/iep (where the above 2 are used )
http://jaipurschool.bihu.in/
For email that puts you in control, choose
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/gmail/control/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48525/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/addressguard2.html>Yahoo!
Mail.