>Bengali is probably the only other Indian language which has Global
>recognition ...
I would say, sure; Bengali language has global recognition by the Bengalis.
Did you know that in many parts of Bangaldesh, Bhutan and Burma, people
speak Assamese?
Thus Assamese also has global recognition by the Assamese.
That however does not make any change of the status.
Barua
----- Original Message -----
From: "Krishnendu Chakraborty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <assam@assamnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 2:32 PM
Subject: [Assam] Book review : India After Gandhi- Bengal democracy
There have been enough flamewars in this forum over
language so I would not jump into it .
However, you might find it interesting to know that
apart from Hindi and Urdu, Bengali is probably the
only other Indian language which has Global
recognition .... not because of India but because it
is the national language of Bangladesh. In fact I
found quite a few Bengali books and movies in Boston
Public Library !
>>>>>I think instead of Hindi, Govertnment of india
better to declare Bengali as official language of
India. Infact, if GOI able to declare it as global
langauge it is even better. What do you think Mr.
Sandip dutta!
SANDIP DUTTA <pseude at yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi,
I think because language is involved, people get
more touchy. But you can look at it in another way. In
private sector companies, many a times mgmt brings in
standards or practices that have to be adopted whether
a section of people like it or not.
Eg. GE insists that all its employees have to be
Six-Sigma quality certified. Many dont understand what
it is and others dont appreciate the relevance of it
to their work. But GE nevertheless insists and
enforces it.
So "forcing" down something may not always be a
problem but could be an oppurtunity as well. It
depends how one looks at it.
Also I am not speaking for the entire community, but
you will have to appreciate that the younger
generation is far more open to Hindi than the earlier
one.
Rgds,
Sandip
----- Original Message ----
From: muktikam phukan <muktikamp at yahoo.co.in>
To: A Mailing list for people interested in Assam from
around the world <assam at assamnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 2:32:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Book review : India After Gandhi-
Bengal democracy
Dear Sri Dutta
Because I m in a Govt PSU, I seen the forcible push
to make Hindi "Our Language". Thats why I said, don't
speak for the whole assamese community. U'll be in a
minority.
Regards
Muktikam
SANDIP DUTTA <pseude at yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Mr. Phukan,
If the deputy director of a Govt owned PSU does not
recognize Hindi as the national language inspite of
its official status, then its pointless to continue
debating further.
Best wishes.
Rgds,
Sandip
----- Original Message ----
From: muktikam phukan <muktikamp at yahoo.co.in>
To: A Mailing list for people interested in Assam from
around the world <assam at assamnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 2:02:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Book review : India After Gandhi-
Bengal democracy
Dear Sri Dutta
I am with a PSU. But here ends the debate. Because u
recognise Hindi as a National language and I don't.
For me its just another Modern Indian Language spoken
predominantly in North India.
Regards
Muktikam Phukan
Deputy Director (NR)
Petroleum Conservation Research Association
Sanrakshan Bhawan,10, Bhikaiji Cama Place,New Delhi
110066
Ph: +91 11 26198856 Ext 385,Res: +91 120
2452892,Mob: +91 9818598565
email: phukanm at pcra.org , muktikamp at
yahoo.co.in
SANDIP DUTTA <pseude at yahoo.com> wrote:
Because its the national language.
When you say "Hindi Fortnight", I assume you are in
a Government Job ?
Rgds,
SD
----- Original Message ----
From: muktikam phukan <muktikamp at yahoo.co.in>
To: A Mailing list for people interested in Assam from
around the world <assam at assamnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 1:41:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Book review : India After Gandhi-
Bengal democracy
Dear Sri Dutta
Learning new languages is definitely good. No
question about that. But why specifically HINDI ? I
don't see any reason behind that.
Regards
Muktikam
SANDIP DUTTA <pseude at yahoo.com> wrote:
I am not supposed to equate - but why?
And "Assam and Hindi heartland are different
culturally and linguistically" - is that an excuse for
not picking up a new language?
Rgds,
Sandip
----- Original Message ----
From: muktikam phukan <muktikamp at yahoo.co.in>
To: A Mailing list for people interested in Assam from
around the world <assam at assamnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 12:49:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Book review : India After Gandhi-
Bengal democracy
Yes Mr Dutta. I'd rather do business in English all
the time than using Hindi in Office. Only in times
like "Hindi Fortnight" do I use Hindi. I am not
ashamed of admitting it. And pl don't equate with
"things back home" as regards 'Hindi'.
Assam & the Hindi Heartland are not same cultrurally
or linguistically.
SANDIP DUTTA <pseude at yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Mr. Muktikam Phukan,
Thanks for the valuable comments.
You are saying you have been in Delhi for 6 years
and you learnt Hindi by compulsion only because of
"GOI policies"?
On one hand we talk of the continuous complaints on
integration of other communities in Assam.
Isnt the reverse true as well? So on the other hand
we have people like you brazenly admitting that you
have never wanted to learn Hindi even though you were
in Delhi for 6 long years and will probably continue
to reside there.
Thanks for the admission though :-)
Rgds,
Sandip
----- Original Message ----
From: muktikam phukan <muktikamp at yahoo.co.in>
To: A Mailing list for people interested in Assam from
around the world <assam at assamnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 12:03:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Book review : India After Gandhi-
Bengal democracy
Dear Mr Sandip Dutta
Congratulations for your proficiency in Hindi, u
being , I hope , an Assamese by birth. This is more
significant as presently, being September, the Hindi
Fortnight is going on countrywide.
But please do not speak on behalf of all the
assamese on their proficiency in Hindi. I m in Delhi
for the last 6 years. Due to the location of Delhi &
GoI policies, I'd to improve my Hindi by compulsion.
Otherwise, I'd never had tried to improve my Hindi. As
goes Assam & the small towns, Hindi is still not
understood or spoken profieciently. Yes, it has
improved a lot. But improvement is not voluntary. Its
because of the media being mostly in Hindi.
Regards
Muktikam
SANDIP DUTTA <pseude at yahoo.com> wrote:
Hindi has about 350-400 M native speakers.
People like me are not native speakers but our Hindi
is as good as any native. Not just me - but tons of
people all across India.
Official statistics difficult to locate - but there
could be upto 800 M people now who speak and
understand Hindi (as per wiki)
Rgds,
Sandip
----- Original Message ----
From: barua25 <barua25 at hotmail.com>
To: A Mailing list for people interested in Assam from
around the world <assam at assamnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 10:07:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Book review : India After Gandhi-
Bengal democracy
DIV {MARGIN:0px;} >In India, more than 30%
are native speakers of Hindi and a total of between 65
and 75% read, write and understand/speak the language.
That >includes many southern speakers as well
65 and 75% Indians read, write Hindi? Where did
you get this statistics?
In our time hardly any Assamese knew Hindi. The GOI
big brother must be doing a good job in Assam.
>Compare that to English - less than 1.5% of the
population actually have proficiency in it.
The power of English.
Barua
----- Original Message -----
From: SANDIP DUTTA
To: A Mailing list for people interested in Assam
from around the world
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Book review : India After
Gandhi- Bengal democracy
First you said - "to get into the elite, one must
learn english". I gave you the example of Laloo. There
are many others like him.
Next you said - "indian unity is because of
english".
In India, more than 30% are native speakers of Hindi
and a total of between 65 and 75% read, write and
understand/speak the language. That includes many
southern speakers as well.
Compare that to English - less than 1.5% of the
population actually have proficiency in it.
English is there not because it is necessary to
enforce unity but because it helps us get business and
do business with most of the outside world. How you
apply it is upto you. Remember I mentioned "business"
and "admin". "Admin" doesnt necessarily mean
government administration only.
So how can I aggree with your conclusions??
Rgds,
SD
----- Original Message ----
From: barua25 <barua25 at hotmail.com>
To: A Mailing list for people interested in Assam from
around the world <assam at assamnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:31:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Book review : India After Gandhi-
Bengal democracy
DIV {MARGIN:0px;} >now it is a situational
demand. With 14+ official languages, English is
naturally the language of choice for business and
admin.
Thanks for supporting my point. I was not referring
to any demand to learn English but it is a situation
demand in India to learn English today.
In the ancient India, it was also a situational
demand to learn Sanskrit to get into the elite. Now it
is English. That was my point.
So you should start by saying, 'I agree' instead.
Thanks
Barua
----- Original Message -----
From: SANDIP DUTTA
To: A Mailing list for people interested in Assam
from around the world
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Book review : India After
Gandhi- Bengal democracy
I disaggee - Earlier it could have been a problem
of compulsion but now it is a situational demand. With
14+ official languages, English is naturally the
language of choice for business and admin.
Also it depends if you really are insistent on
defining "elite" in the manner you do.
Taking the earlier example of Laloo - he is not
exceptionally good with English but he is still in the
elite class by virtue of being minister. His recent
successes in reforming IR have now made him unofficial
management consultant as well.
Hope that makes sense.
Rgds,
Sandip
----- Original Message ----
From: barua25 <barua25 at hotmail.com>
To: A Mailing list for people interested in Assam from
around the world <assam at assamnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 9:37:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Book review : India After Gandhi-
Bengal democracy
DIV {MARGIN:0px;} >I myself know an IRS officer
now posted in Coorg district of Karnataka. He is from
UP and from a very lower middle class background.
However >after 15 years in the services, his english
is as good as anyone else's and he has good working
knowledge of Kannada.
If the guy knows good English, it actually proves my
original point that in India in ancient when one had
to learn Sanskrit to be in the elite class, now one
has to be good in English to be in the elite class.
Barua
----- Original Message -----
From: SANDIP DUTTA
To: A Mailing list for people interested in Assam
from around the world
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Book review : India After
Gandhi- Bengal democracy
Rather than coming to conclusions about whether
this attributes to dictatorship - why not involve
someone from that state in this discussion to see if
he concurs with this view.
Ditto for IAS/IPS officers coming from vernacular
mediums. Contrary to belief, such officers actually
have very good (if not excellent) knowledge of English
and at times local languages wherever they are posted.
I myself know an IRS officer now posted in Coorg
district of Karnataka. He is from UP and from a very
lower middle class background. However after 15 years
in the services, his english is as good as anyone
else's and he has good working knowledge of Kannada.
No wonder we see most of the demands for
sovereignity and seperation from foreign settled
people who have got disconnected with the way this
country works (and still works).
Rgds,
Sandip
----- Original Message ----
From: barua25 <barua25 at hotmail.com>
To: umesh.sh05 at post.harvard.edu; A Mailing list for
people interested in Assam from around the world
<assam at assamnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:00:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Book review : India After Gandhi-
Bengal democracy
>a nexus prevents anyone from voting against the
"party" or else face ex-communication a-la erstwhile
Pope's rule in Europe in medieval times ->as per a
Bengali researcher
This is in fact what is called 'elected
dictatorship' going on in West bengal in name of
democracy.
Rajenda
----- Original Message -----
From: umesh sharma
To: A Mailing list for people interested in Assam
from around the world
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Book review : India After
Gandhi- Bengal democracy
Rajen-da
Good example of India-Shining rhetoric.
But just becos there is peace (despite armed militancy
in 25% of India's districts- NE, Kashmir, Bihar,
Central India, LTTE South India etc etc) and not many
are dying of starvation and voting not by reading
election manifestos but by recognizing cartoons
(election symbols) of political parties .
Even democratically elected communist govt (an
anamoly) of West Bengal is allegedly in power for
past 25 years non-stop since a nexus prevents
anyone from voting against the "party" or else face
ex-communication a-la erstwhile Pope's rule in Europe
in medieval times -as per a Bengali researcher .
But ofcourse noone can deny that despite is
shortcomings the India that is Bharat is growing -
despite spoofs like Hollywood's "Borat" movie (Bharat
??) from Kazakhstan (Rajasthan???)
Umesh
Rajen & Ajanta Barua <barua25 at hotmail.com> wrote:
Following may be added from another review about
the book:
India is the country that was never expected to ever
be a country. In the late 19th century, Sir John
Strachey, a senior British official, grandly opined
that the territory's diverse states simply could not
possess any sort of unity, physical, political, social
or religious. Strachey, clearly, was wrong: India
today is a unified entity and a rising global power.
Even so, it continues to defy explanation. India's
existence, says Guha, an internationally known scholar
(Environmentalism: A Global History), has also been an
anomaly for academic political science, according to
whose axioms cultural heterogeneity and poverty do not
make a nation, still less a democratic one. Yet India
continues to exist. Guha's aim in this startlingly
ambitious political, cultural and social survey is to
explain why and how. He cheerfully concludes that
India's continuing existence results from its unique
diversity and its refusal to be pigeonholed into such
conventional political models as
Anglo-American liberalism, French republicanism,
atheistic communism or Islamist theocracy. India is
proudly sui generis, and with August 15, 2007, being
the 60th anniversary of Indian independence, Guha's
magisterial history of India since that day comes not
a moment too soon. 32 pages of b&w illus., 8 maps.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rajen & Ajanta Barua
To: assam at assamnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 10:42 PM
Subject: [Assam] Book review : India After Gandhi
Good review of a grand 900 page book on India
recently published:
India After Gandhi: The History of the World's
Largest Democracy by Ramachandra Guha
>From The Washington Post's Book
World/washingtonpost.com
Reviewed by George Perkovich
A toast to India on its 60th birthday: No
country has more heroically pursued the promise of
democracy. Against the odds of staggering poverty,
conflicting religious passions, linguistic pluralism,
regional separatism, caste injustice and natural
resource scarcity, Indians have lifted themselves
largely by their own sandal straps to become a
stalwart democracy and emerging global power. India
has risen with epic drama -- a nonviolent struggle for
independence followed by mass mayhem and bloodletting,
dynastic succession and assassination, military
victory and defeat, starvation succeeded by green
revolution, political leaders as saints, sinners and
sexual ascetics. And yet, the Indian story rarely has
been told and is practically unknown to Americans.
India After Gandhi masterfully fills the void. India
needs a wise and judicious narrator to convey its
scale, diversity and chaos -- to describe the
whirlwind without getting lost in it. It needs a
biographer neither besotted by love nor enraged by
disappointment. Ramachandra Guha, a historian who has
taught at Stanford and Yale and now lives in
Bangalore, has given democratic India the rich,
well-paced history it deserves.
Much will be new to American readers. Large-scale
conflicts in India's northeast between tribal groups
and the center have been as enduring, and in some ways
as important, as the more familiar violence in
Kashmir. The framing of India's constitution from 1946
through 1949 should induce awe, especially in light of
Iraq's post-Saddam experience.
In the midst of Hindu-Muslim bloodshed, a flood of 8
million refugees, starvation, and other profound
conflicts, Indian representatives worked out
constitutional provisions to protect minorities, keep
religion out of state power, correct thousands of
years of caste discrimination and redistribute power
and wealth accumulated by still-regnant princely
states. This was done with no external guidance or
pressure. The drafting committee was chaired by an
"untouchable," B.R. Ambedkar -- analogies are inexact,
but imagine if James Madison at the Philadelphia
Constitutional Convention had been a freed slave.
Specialists will quicken over insights from the
private papers of Indira Gandhi's confidant, P.N.
Haksar, who gave his papers to Guha. These documents
reveal, among other things, that it was the Soviet
Union that proposed the 1971 treaty of cooperation and
friendship between the two countries, and that
suspicion of China motivated both nations more than
was appreciated at the time.
Miniature biographies of grassroots leaders and
movements also enliven Guha's storytelling. Jay
Aprakash Narayan -- "JP" -- plays a leading role. A
onetime friend of Nehru who became the bête noir of
his daughter, Indira Gandhi, JP led a massive movement
for radical governmental reform in 1974-75, which
moved Indira Gandhi to declare a national emergency
and suspend democracy.
Some themes go under-explored: For example, why has
the Indian Army abstained from interfering in
politics, unlike the military in many other developing
countries? And why has India given short shrift to
primary education, even as it has developed
technological institutes that rival M.I.T?
Many chapters begin or end with India's future in
doubt. "India is almost infinitely depressing," Aldous
Huxley wrote in 1961, "for there seems to be no
solution to its problems in any way that any of us [in
the West] regard as acceptable." He predicted that
"when Nehru goes, the government will become a
military dictatorship." Guha records that "ever since
the country was formed there have also been many
Indians who have seen the survival of India as being
on the line, some (the patriots) speaking or writing
in fear, others (the secessionists or revolutionaries)
with anticipation."
Yet, marvelously, India's survival as a democracy
seems more assured than ever. Less clear is the nature
of its relationship with America. Since 2005, the U.S.
and Indian governments have moved toward nuclear
cooperation, reversing 30 years of U.S. policy against
nuclear assistance to countries that refuse to sign
the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty.
Washington clearly views India as a counterbalance
to China's strategic power. But Guha records an
important historical parallel.
In 1962, China crossed disputed boundaries in the
northwest and northeast of India. A shocked Prime
Minister Jawaharlal Nehru abandoned nonalignment and
pleaded for emergency U.S. military assistance.
Ambassador John Kenneth Galbraith wrote to President
Kennedy: "The only Asian country which really stands
in [China's] way is India and pari passu the only
Western country that is assuming responsibility is the
United States. . . . We should expect to make use of
India's political position, geographical position,
political power and manpower or anyhow ask."
Four decades later, another Harvard
professor-cum-American ambassador to India, Robert
Blackwill, championed the proposed nuclear deal with
similar reasoning. As different as the presidents they
served, Blackwill and Galbraith were tempted by
strategic abstraction and a desire to raise "their"
country -- India -- in American priorities. Yet
supplying arms to India in 1962 did not make India any
more deferential to U.S. foreign policy. Washington
will delude itself again if it thinks that nuclear
India will be a pliant instrument in its geostrategy.
As long as India is a democracy, it will go its own
way.
To comprehend India's achievement, imagine if Mexico
became the 51st of the United States, followed by
Brazil, Argentina and the rest of Central and South
America. Add Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Bahrain to give
this union the Sunni-Shia mix of India. The population
then represented in Congress would still be smaller
and less diverse linguistically, religiously,
culturally and economically than India's. If such a
state could democratically manage the interests and
conflicts swirling within it, and not threaten its
neighbors, the world should ask little else from it.
If we were such a state, we would feel that our humane
progress contributes so much to global well-being that
smaller, richer, easier-to-manage states should not
presume to tell us what to do.
Sixty years after Gandhi, India has earned greater
appreciation than we give it.
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Harvard Graduate School of Education,
Harvard University,
Class of 2005
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http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)
www.gse.harvard.edu/iep (where the above 2 are used )
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Petroleum Conservation Research Association
Sanrakshan Bhawan,10, Bhikaiji Cama Place,New Delhi
110066
Ph: +91 11 26198856 Ext 385,Res: +91 120
2452892,Mob: +91 9818598565
email: phukanm at pcra.org , muktikamp at
yahoo.co.in
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Muktikam Phukan
Deputy Director (NR)
Petroleum Conservation Research Association
Sanrakshan Bhawan,10, Bhikaiji Cama Place,New Delhi
110066
Ph: +91 11 26198856 Ext 385,Res: +91 120
2452892,Mob: +91 9818598565
email: phukanm at pcra.org , muktikamp at
yahoo.co.in
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Deputy Director (NR)
Petroleum Conservation Research Association
Sanrakshan Bhawan,10, Bhikaiji Cama Place,New Delhi
110066
Ph: +91 11 26198856 Ext 385,Res: +91 120
2452892,Mob: +91 9818598565
email: phukanm at pcra.org , muktikamp at
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Petroleum Conservation Research Association
Sanrakshan Bhawan,10, Bhikaiji Cama Place,New Delhi
110066
Ph: +91 11 26198856 Ext 385,Res: +91 120
2452892,Mob: +91 9818598565
email: phukanm at pcra.org , muktikamp at
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Deputy Director (NR)
Petroleum Conservation Research Association
Sanrakshan Bhawan,10, Bhikaiji Cama Place,New Delhi
110066
Ph: +91 11 26198856 Ext 385,Res: +91 120
2452892,Mob: +91 9818598565
email: phukanm at pcra.org , muktikamp at
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