Rajen:
You asked the following question:
solve>Are you suggesting we import bidesi-demokrasi or bilati-demokrasi to
>Assam's problem?
My answer was:
> So to answer the question, YES, if need be, ideas to makedesi-demokrasy functional and effective, will have to be imported.Not just for Assam. India needs it badly as well.
And since your question had the connotation of a challenge, I asked you :
Is the concept outlandish and/or outrageous as the question implies?
*** Instead of answering the question you go on an exercise of lecturing me on India's debt to Western systems, as if I am ignorant of it.
Is that a 'logically reasoned' response?
So far as Indian democracy is concerned, .our leaders scholars from all classes of India headed by Dr.Abmedkar have well searched and adopted the British Parliamentary system into Indian system with all the possible checks and balances with provision for self improvement.
*** Once again you are lecturing me as if I did not know this.
The question however remains on HOW MUCH of these checks and balances work in desi-demokrasy as it stands?
That is the difference. Obviously the kind of logical reasoning you are familiar with and are in monopoly of, did not help you figure out that simple
but critical difference.
If you are suggesting that they did not do a good job, then probably you have some other system in mind. May we hear what it is that you prefer or think will better suit India for governance. May be we will get somewhere.
*** And is this the best inference you could come up with your logical reasoning?
I am really sorry to see it thus.
At 8:19 AM -0500 4/27/05, Rajen Barua wrote:
> *** First off, democracy is not an Indian invention. It is of bilatiorigin to begin with.
Chandan: Let us not open that can of worms. Because, you will be surprised how much the modern Indian (Eastern) civilization is indebted to the West (bilati). On my count I found all of the following to be of bilati origin.
Politics: Democracy, Communism, Socialism, Vote, Constitution etc. Sports: Football, Cricket, etc Literature: Novel Entertainment: Cinema Social; Table, Chair, Pant, Tie, (not to mention all modern gadgets) etc
All of the above items are basically bilati items which we adopted into our present civilization.
So far as Indian democracy is concerned, .our leaders scholars from all classes of India headed by Dr.Abmedkar have well searched and adopted the British Parliamentary system into Indian system with all the possible checks and balances with provision for self improvement. If you are suggesting that they did not do a good job, then probably you have some other system in mind. May we hear what it is that you prefer or think will better suit India for governance. May be we will get somewhere.
Rajen
----- Original Message ----- From: "Chan Mahanta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Rajen Barua" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [Assam] The meek shall be homeless -II
> >Are you suggesting we import bidesi-demokrasi or bilati-demokrasi to solve > >Assam's problem?> So to answer the question, YES, if need be, ideas to make
*** First off, democracy is not an Indian invention. It is of bilati origin to begin with.
As it stands, "desi-demokrasy" is a degenerated version of the original, which has ceased to function in many of its essential components.
To make it work effectively it has to be reformed. And since it is not a native product, locally invented, desi-generated fix-its won't work. For example a demand to have the right NOT to vote for anyone in the slate; or a call for NGOs to supplant GOs, or for a call for the citizenry to rise up with the RIGHT ACTIONS, while a definition of the right actions are missing, so on and so forth won't work.
desi-demokrasy functional and effective, will have to be imported.> Not just for Assam. India needs it badly as well.> Is the concept outlandish and/or outrageous as the question implies?
solve
At 11:52 AM -0500 4/25/05, Rajen Barua wrote: > >What happened to the arguments of the wise that >>a dedicated devotion to desi-demokrasy would solve all of the >>problems ? > >Are you suggesting we import bidesi-demokrasi or bilati-demokrasi to:-).>Assam's problem? > >Rajen > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Chan Mahanta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[email protected]> >Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 10:44 AM >Subject: RE: [Assam] The meek shall be homeless -II > > >> >You are absolutely correct. My suggestion really is impractical. I >> >think, it came out more out of sheer frustration at the state of >> >affairs than anything else. >> >> >> *** Frustration? Why? What happened to the arguments of the wise that >> a dedicated devotion to desi-demokrasy would solve all of the >> problems ? Or are those merely disingenuous arguments, the truth >> being really the opposite? >> >> >> But I won't hold my breath on the expectations of a truthful answer> >> >quite some>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> At 8:17 PM +0000 4/24/05, Ram Sarangapani wrote: >> >Bhuban da, >> > >> > >Ram has made the above suggestion. It is not a practical one. Forlate>> >>time past the Assamese daily Pratidin used to name leaders as well >members >> >>of the public alleged to be involved in corruption and crime. Ofchanged>this >> >>type of reporting appears to be absent.The paper has certainly> >> >such errant officials are thrown off their jobs and summarily run of>for >> >>better or worse. >> > >> >You are absolutely correct. My suggestion really is impractical. I >> >think, it came out more out of sheer frustration at the state of >> >affairs than anything else. >> > >> >There are times though, when there is irrefutable eveidence, and if >> >newspapers can be be investigative, such things do prove valuable. >> > >> >Of course we certainly don't want any witch hunts or bias against >> >some particular group, but if GMC and ASEB are that corrupt, why >> >shouldn't the media launch sting operations and catch the corrupt >> >with their hands caught in the jar? >> > >> >Of course, again as you say, the newspapers who want do do this type >> >of investigative reporting must be financially sound to fight >> >litigation that might follow. >> > >> >--Ram >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >From: umesh sharma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > >To: [email protected] >> > >Subject: RE: [Assam] The meek shall be homeless -II >> > >Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:38:28 +0100 (BST) >> > > >> > >Ram-da, >> > > >> > >Well said!! It is all across India. >> > > >> > >Umesh >> > > >> > >Ram-da wrote: >> > >It come to such a pass, that parents of eligible brides often >> >seek officials from GMC or ASEB or other places for grooms who have >> >'bhira poisa ase nohoi'. >> > > >> > > >> > >Ram Sarangapani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > > >> > > >Question is how? What kind of rising will do the job? >> >Hartals, >gheraos, >bandhs, physical uttom-modhyom to the perceived >> >guilty, >> > > >> > >What Assam needs are very strong leaders who are interested in > > >Assam as opposed to filling their pockets. It may not seem much, but >> >people (NGOs) are doing what they can. It was because of the huge >> >public outcry that there was a speedy trial and conviction of the >> >culprits who raped & murdered a 12 year old girl in Guwahati. >> >Bottomline is, if people so desire and are adamant that corruption >> >be stemmed, they have the ability to affect changes. >> > > >> > >One suggestion, I would have is for newspapers and other media to >> >give a monthly list of all these corrupt officials and term them as >> >DNB has rightly said 'anti national'. The newspapers can make surethe>> >town. >> > > >> > >Unfortunately, the situation seems to be such that corruption by > > >GMC/PWD or the ASEB is considered 'normal'. The people it seems >> >have come to accept these probably as 'Generally Accepted Corrupt >> >Practices' (GACP) - our own home-grown version of GAAP :-) >> > > >> > >It come to such a pass, that parents of eligible brides often >> >seek officials from GMC or ASEB or other places for grooms who have >> >'bhira poisa ase nohoi'. >> > > >> > >So, unless people's attitude towards corruption is changed, yes >> >nothing is going to happen. Its not enough for people to be >> >complacent and keep saying they are helpless. >> > > >> > >--Ram >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >From: Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > > >To: [email protected] >> > > >Subject: [Assam] The meek shall be homeless -II >> > > >Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 09:42:26 -0500 >> > > > >> > > >I looked for the author's promised recommendations on how to fixof>> > > >'problem/s'. >> > > > >> > > >I did not find any. Of course I am disappointed. >> > > > >> > > >DNB has merely repeated the litany of complaints of the people>> > > >Assam that has been going on for decades now. His recommendationtoearlier.>> > > >the people to rise against what ails Assam is a day late and a >> > > >dollar short. Others saw the handwriting on the wall much>> > > >And some realized that nothing would change unless Assam wrestedthe>> > > >powers to take care of itself from a remote Center and took toarms.unless>> > > > >> > > >DNB is right about only one thing: That nothing would change>> > > >the people RISE. Question is how? What kind of rising will dotheconvict>> > > >job? Hartals, gheraos, bandhs, physical uttom-modhyom to the >> > > >perceived guilty, marching on the lax judges that fail to>> > > >anyone, writing news-paper editorials excoriating the nationstop>> > > >law-enforcement agency, the CBI, for failing to get convictionsmore>> > > >than the pathetic 8%, or abolish Assam police whose convictionrateof>> > > >is probably even less? What? >> > > > >> > > >Or maybe he should have been more explicit and told the peopleand>> > > >Assam to get more moral? >> > > > >> > > >In a functional constitutional democracy, there are built in >> > > >mechanisms with which the people can correct the course of its >> > > >governance.Fix what is broken, amend what needs improving, so on>> > > >so forth. DNB realizes, like many before him already did, thatsuch>> > > >constitutional, peaceful means do not work in Indian democracy.For>> > > >if they did, if they could be counted upon for the people torely>> > > >on, he would have cited them, would have pointed the uninformedtoleading>> > > >the tools available which they ought to use. >> > > > >> > > >Did he? Could he? >> > > > >> > > >Can Assam Netters fill in and supply what DNB missed? >> > > > >> > > >Too bad it was yet another exercise in running in circles,or a>> > > >to nowhere. >> > > >What I wonder about is whether it is a self inflicted conditionand>> > > >genuine >> > > >unawareness born out of never having seen any better. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >The meek shall be homeless -II >> > > >WITH EYES WIDE OPEN >> > > > >> > > >D. N. Bezboruah >> > > >Last week I had ended by saying that if we let the anti-social> > > > >criminal elements in our society have their way for ten moreyears>> > > >they will dispossess all law-abiding citizens of their hearthsand>> > > >homes and banish the law for good. I was perhaps wrong aboutthescene>> > > >ten years. Having started the process of selling Assam to >> > > >Bangladesh already, they are in a tearing hurry to quit the>> > > >of their treachery and disappear before anyone can get to them.Sopeople>> > > >the process may take much less than we imagine. >> > > > >> > > >The first thing to bear in mind is that Assam is too full ofof>> > > >who cannot make a decent living out of their education, their >> > > >skills or their wits. They certainly cannot make a living out> > > > >their manual labour. This is not to say that everyone herefalls inmanagement>> > > >that category. What I wish to convey is that a majority of the >> > > >people who are in politics or in any kind of political>> > > >belong to this class who must make a living out of crookedpractices>> > > >alone. The only problem is they think that this is whatpolitics is>> > > >all about. So they sincerely believe that hoodwinking thepeoplethe>> > > >and living off them like overgrown parasites is perfectly >> > > >legitimate activity in a democratic society. And therein lies>> > > >danger to the law-abiding citizen. So if we do not have oureyes>> > > >wide open to look into our tomorrows, we are going to beoutwitted>> > > >by people who are less educated, less honest and lessindustrious>> > > >than we are. And they are going to win against good peoplebecauseto>> > > >they are more determined, more united in crime and far more >> > > >desperate. They have nothing else to depend on except their >> > > >crookedness. >> > > > >> > > >There are umpteen organizations that we can take up as examples>> > > >show how the crooked have always managed to defraud the honestand>> > > >the law-abiding citizens. For the time being, we shall look atjustother>> > > >two of them (or what were two organizations but have become six >> > > >now). One is the Guwahati Municipal Corporation (GMC) and the>> > > >the former Assam State Electricity Board (ASEB) that has nowbeenexactly>> > > >broken up into five organizations, the names of which I cannot >> > > >remember. I do not have to tell anyone that the GMC is notnot>> > > >an organization full of saintly souls. Had it been so, the >> > > >commercial wards of Fancy Bazar, Pan Bazar and Athgaon would>> > > >have managed to get away with paying a fraction of themunicipal>> > > >taxes that they owe to the GMC, they would not have managed toget>> > > >by on the old absurd rates even after increasing the size oftheir>> > > >holdings several times, they would not have managed to floutall>> > > >the building bye-laws and they would not have escapedpunishment>> > > >for regularly pumping water from the water mains. We know allthese>> > > >activities that cause severe losses to the GMC are possiblebecause>> > > >there are more people within the GMC who think of their ownpockets>> > > >before they think of the GMC that has employed them. I salutethe>> > > >minority in the GMC who can claim, hand on heart, that they arenotwho>> > > >guilty, but I maintain that they have been undone by too many >> > > >errant brothers. The GMC also has hundreds of conservancy staff>> > > >have drawn their salaries for years without doing any work atall.>> > > >They have even managed to increase their salaries andallowances.>> > > >And because they do not work and because the garbage of thecitythough>> > > >must be cleaned, the GMC has had to entrust the task of garbage >> > > >clearance to contractors who must be paid separately evenwho>> > > >the GMC is already paying its conservancy staff. This is an >> > > >anti-national crime on the part of both the conservancy staffthose>> > > >draw their salaries without working as well on the part of the >> > > >officers who allow this to happen. And in a democracy, an >> > > >anti-national crime is an anti-people crime. In other words,> > > > >guilty of this crime are enemies of the people. And what arethese>> > > >enemies of the people up to now? They are very anxious to getall>> > > >the Asian Development Bank and World Bank development loansthatcoffers.>> > > >are being extended to the GMC. But they have no intentions of >> > > >treating these loans as loans. They would rather treat them as >> > > >grants and siphon out whatever is possible into their own>> > > >But the ADB and the WB are not as lenient customers as theCentral>> > > >Government. They know how to arm-twist beneficiaries intoreturningwhatsoever.>> > > >loans. And when this happens, the GMC will start hiking taxes > > > > >eight, nine or even ten times for no development workand>> > > >Middle-class taxpayers will be in no position to pay such taxes >> > > >(and should not pay such taxes to subsidize pay without work)>> > > >will soon find that they will have to sell their property topay>> > > >municipal taxes! And those who have always got away with payinga>> > > >fraction of their legitimate taxes will be the ones to buy upsuch>> > > >property. This is the scenario that stares us in the face unlesswe>> > > >wake up now to prevent what is on the agenda of the crookedones.>> > > >We must insist on the dismissal of those who draw salarieswithouthiking>> > > >work and the proper calculation and collection of taxes in the >> > > >commercial wards of the city before there can be any talk of>> > > >taxes. We must collectively challenge unfair tax hikes in courtand>> > > >carry out a crusade against such tax hikes to subsidize paymentof>> > > >salaries without work. Incidentally, all political parties ofthe>> > > >State will call such a crusade the handiwork of the Left, butthatAssamese>> > > >should not worry anyone because this is really just a complaint >> > > >about the opportunities for easy money at the cost of therather>> > > >that would seem to have eluded them. >> > > > >> > > >Then there is the Assam State Electricity Board (ASEB) or>> > > >its five new avatars. The installed capacity of the ASEB was514>> > > >MW, and at one time the ASEB had about 24,000 employees. Over46>> > > >employees per MW of electricity generated and distributed mustbe aTrue,>> > > >sort of record fit for the Guinness Book of World Records. But >> > > >today the new avatars of the ASEB generate less than 120 MW.adverse>> > > >the number of employees has come down to about 17,000. But the >> > > >number of employees per MW generated has gone up to a more16>> > > >141.66 or so. And what is the Assam Electricity Regulatory >> > > >Commission (AERC) planning to do now? Why, it now envisages a>> > > >per cent return on equity for the new transmission companies ofthe>> > > >ASEB. And yet, it was the same AERC that had turned down anappeal>> > > >made by the ASEB for a three per cent return on equity made inthe>> > > >year 2002-03! What happens to the consumer? He ends up payinganare>> > > >increase of almost 50 per cent on power tariff. And he is being >> > > >expected to do this when he knows that ministers in a democracyago,>> > > >getting free power, bureaucrats and officers getting away with >> > > >paying a ridiculous pittance for the current they consume and a >> > > >whole lot of power thieves are just stealing power. Some years>> > > >I did a report on power theft by two companies of Amingaon tothe>> > > >tune of Rs 2 crore. The senior officer of the ASEB who helpedwithand>> > > >this power theft was rewarded with a promotion just before he >> > > >retired! And who is meekly subsidizing all this theft of power>> > > >the totally redundant number of employees? The meek,unquestioningeveryone>> > > >bill-payers of course. It is the honest, regular bill-payers who >> > > >end up paying for all the aberrations of the system and forthe>> > > >who gets electricity free or steals it. Should the law-abiding >> > > >citizens not rise in protest to end such injustice and loot of >> > > >power? They may choose to be as unheeding as they have been in> > > > >past. But in that case they are all working actively for theirown> >> > >http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam>> > > >funerals, and have no one else to blame. >> > > >_______________________________________________ >> > > >Assam mailing list >> > > >[email protected] >> > > >http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam >> > > > >> > > >Mailing list FAQ: >> > > >http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html >> > > >To unsubscribe or change options: >> > > >http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam >> > > >> > >_______________________________________________ >> > >Assam mailing list >> > >[email protected] >> > >http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > > > >> > >Mailing list FAQ: >> > >http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html >> > >To unsubscribe or change options: >> > >http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam >> > > >> > >Send instant messages to your online friends >http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com >> > >_______________________________________________ >> > >Assam mailing list >> > >[email protected]>> > > >> > >Mailing list FAQ: >> > >http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html >> > >To unsubscribe or change options: >> > >http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Assam mailing list >> >[email protected] >> >http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam >> > >> >Mailing list FAQ: >> >http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html >> >To unsubscribe or change options: >> >http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Assam mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam >> >> Mailing list FAQ: >> http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html >> To unsubscribe or change options: >> http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam >>
_______________________________________________ Assam mailing list [email protected] http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam
Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam
_______________________________________________ Assam mailing list [email protected] http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam
Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam
