Dilip-da:
With all due respects, how you think you would would have behaved if you had been in a hypothetical situation - really does not matter. No one can answer such hypothetical questions meaningfully. But I am glad you have not talked about heaven and hell so far :-). 
I strongly suggest a viewing of the "bicycle thief".
For what it matters, I don't believe in absolute morality and I don't think all corruption is immoral. Some are bad practice, some are good practice and some are immoral.
Good practice: Charging money for granting businesses economic freedom to carry out free enterprise that is otherwise restricted by arbitrary laws that are simply intended to fill politicians' pockets or preserve monopoly power of existing firms.
Bad practice: Charging money from the same business to grant immunity from pollution law or law against inhuman labor conditions. Granting contracts to most incapable firms.
Immoral: Stealing money from flood relief; disposing foreign aid dissaster supplies for private profit.
But that is my value. Morality is matter of personal values and we are all right to stick to our own. Let's not pass judgement on others seating ourselves on high horses.
Santanu.
PS: As you can see, given my values, if I lived in India, I would probably have been corrupt.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Dilip/Dil Deka
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:47 PM
To: Chan Mahanta; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Assam] something about corruption

O'Mahanta,
You said, " Depending on my circumstances, I might. It may not have to be a cash bribe. I might look the other way, considering that it is the norm anyway, and that I won't have to pay even if I get caught; for a seat for my child at the Holy Whatsmacallit School. Or a piece of land I might be able to buy at a reasonable price at Hengerabari. Or for treatment for my ailing uncle at the Uptown Nursing Home. Catch my drift?

And now can I ask you the same question, with the same conditions?"
 
DD: What I gather from your (personal) answer is that depending on your convenience and needs, you would bend your moral values that you inherited from your parents. Did I read you correctly?
 
You asked me how I'd answer the question with the conditions you set. I definitely would not accept bribe to augment my income so that I can send my children to Holy Whatsamacallit or buy a property in Narikolbasti or Hengerabari. A main reason why I remained in USA is related - even on my limited income I do not have to ask for graft/bribe for a decent living, and also I do not have to offer bribe to any one to get things done. Did I change after coming to USA? No, I respected the same moral values when I lived in India. It caused a lot of hardship like standing in front of an RBI clerk in Calcutta office for six hours to get a document because I refused to pay him a bribe. But I did not sway.
I have seen several postings in the net on moral values and their relativity. In my opinion either you have it or you don't, there are no conditional situations.
 
The last question I asked you was about taking bribe. Let's go another way.  Let's say you were managing a road upgrade project near Namti and you could divert 1 lakh of rupees to yourself from the Rs. 1 crore project if the compacting requirements were relaxed. Let's also say that you need the money to replace your wife's old car. Would you cheat the poor people of Namti by giving them an inferior road?
 
O'Deka
===================================================================
 
 
 
 


Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 7:43 AM -0700 5/3/05, Dilip/Dil Deka wrote:
O'Mahanta,
Suppose you (personally) had stayed in India and were working for Guwahati Development Authority as an architect-manager. Would you accept bribe to allow someone to build an apartment complex in violation of the codes or would you even think about it? If not, why not?
 
Give me a straight answer, without asking me a question in return. Then we can discuss more.
O'Deka



Depending on my circumstances, I might. It may not have to be a cash bribe. I might look the other way, considering that it is the norm anyway, and that I won't have to pay even if I get caught; for a seat for my child at the Holy Whatsmacallit School. Or a piece of land I might be able to buy at a reasonable price at Hengerabari. Or for treatment for my ailing uncle at the Uptown Nursing Home.

Catch my drift?

And now can I ask you the same question, with the same conditions?

O'm















Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
O'Deka:


Are you suggesting that your generation and mine grew up without any moral foundation, either  from home or from elementary school?


To accept your contention would mean that we did not, that is why the nations leadership today--your contemporaries and mine, are so without any moral compunction.


Of course I reject the notion entirely. Because I know that most of the people I grew up with are capable of being as moral as Dilip Deka or Rajen Barua or Ram Sarabgapani or any such icon of kharkhowa-morality.


The other questions that comes to mind are:

        1: If parents of our generation or those after us too,
        were/are incapable of providing the moral foundations to their
        progeny, HOW will it change for the other generations to come?

        Are you not implying that because Dilip Deka or Rajen Barua or Kalam
        Saheb wishes so, it will happen miraculously? Would that not be a
        profoundly simplistic wish? A delusion in fact?

        2: What has  been the state of elementary education in Assam or
        the vast majority of schools in India? And who teach those kids?
        Where do the teachers get their own MORAL FOUNDATIONS to pass on
        to their charges--the pupils?

        If society's most privileged, the parents of the present , corrupt
        generation that leads the nation failed to impart moral education
        to their  progeny, at their homes; how do you suppose the high-school
        graduates or at most a BA from a local college who are the elementary
        school teachers, have the moral wherewithal to instruct that future
        MORAL generation to save India from itself?

        3: Furthermore, what is the source of morality in India? Where do
        the people get their moral education from? Do they derive it from
        their religious scriptures and leaders, or from secular ethics?

        In the former, if it is lacking today, where will it come for better
        moral foundations tomorrow? And if the religious teachers were
        either ignorant or frauds yesterday or are so today, how would
        things change, I mean unless one is depending on bigger and more
        temples or more effective bribing of the gods?

        If it were the latter, secular ethics that has proven to be
        schmethics, then who will train better teachers to impart truly
        secular ethics on the generations to come? And where will they get the
        bribe money to go get those plum elementary school teache jobs for life?


Need I go on? I am sure you catch my drift. Now don't go silent on us to
leave us reeling in our own despair. Tell us how!

The least you can do :-).

O'm









[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What would be the best way to bring down the level of corruption to the minimum,if not completely,in a state like Assam? President A Kalam,in his Republic day address to the nation said " There are only three members of the society who can remove corruption ----They are father,mother and elementary school teacher."
Is corruption then a problem of moral character ? Or,is it something to do with the transformation of our  system?

What is your view ?
KJD
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