Ram:
Who is asking for STRICT, Ram? How about a little? Even a little
would go a long way towards strengthening the hands of those who
struggle valiantly only for the rug to be pulled from under their feet
by the dysfunctional state machinery.
Yes, indeed, a strong value system based on faith which is not
phony or not dependent on bribery of the gods would be very desirable.
Can it be imported from Norway? Even that would require repealing the
laws against CONVERSION in Tamilnadu, Gujarat etc., wouldn't it?
Or maybe these are states that have enough morality already and won't
need more?
Force people NOT to
be corrupt or infuse value systems in the society. Take your pick.
*** Why does it have to be only one or the other? What
about a little of both? Or more of one and less of the other, balanced
to serve the need of the times?
Are NRAs/NRIs paragons of
virtue because of the strict laws in this country or were they that
way to start off with?
*** False question. NRAs / NRIs are not paragons of
virtue. They just sound like that in their pronouncements. It is that
damned English language thingie. They are NOT that conceited. But they
are smart enough to know that they better act like Romans when in
Rome, or else their 'xandoh khowa bali doob jaabo'( the party would be
over). But they have more than enough virtue in them to understand and
accept that ethical behavior is good, and it is reinforced by the fact
that it does indeed PAY. They learnt it in places like Assam, believe
it or not, obviously from the societies they grew up in, even in those
where uncles and neighbors ask how much 'bahira hat' they might have
in their new jobs.
The same lot, if transplanted back to such paragons of virtue
locales like Gujarat or Maharashtra or TN, they would struggle to hold
on to their ethics, but will come a time they will either give in, or
leave once again, like so many have done.
c-da
At 9:27 AM -0500 5/3/05, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da,
Ofcourse the rule of law strictly applied does curb corruption in
society. But there are some problems I see.
Lets take the case of Norway (I think listed at the top as a
corruption-free state) and that of Singapore (also listed high up
there).
Sometime back, I came across some reading on the subject. In Norway,
it is not so much the rule of law come down hard on defaulters, but
that the society as a whole by nature or propensity do not resort to
corruption. They are just ethically or morally (in this case) stronger
than most other societies. But in Singapore, the opposite is the case.
The strict rule of law acts as a deterent. Same in Saudi Arabia (at
least for the common folks), strict Islamic law acts as a 'moral
guide'.
People in Singapore or Saudi are more afraid of losing a limb than
they are of a God. IMHO, given a chance, its more than likely that
Norwegians would still not be corrupt, while Saudis and Singaporeans
would fall like fallen angels.
That difference sets the ultimate ethical/moral tone for a nation. So
nations have to choose between these two options: Force people NOT to
be corrupt or infuse value systems in the society. Take your pick.
So, the question you might want to ask is: Are NRAs/NRIs paragons of
virtue because of the strict laws in this country or were they that
way to start off with?
--Ram
On 5/3/05, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ram:
>
> Yes we are, replete with fallacious arguyments again :-)
>
> > >For a nation to be corruption-free (most of the time), public
> >consiciousness and ethics come into play. Individuals have the burden
> >not to fall into corruption whether big brother is looking or not.
>
> *** Of course it does. But the argument here implies that those MORAL
> people are unavailable. That is the deadly fallacy here. If they did
> not exist, or the concept of morality and ethics are unknown to
> desis, then where has this crop of the sanctimonious in Assam Net
> appear from? Surely they were not born of immaculate conception and
> raised in some corruption free planet to be planted in NRA land, were
> they?
>
> So Kamal's perception is correct. It is NOT the scarcity of moral or
> ethical knowledge. But it is the absence of a functional state and
> its institutions with which to hold the wayward accountable, to
> punish the defaulters and to reward those who behave ethically and
> morally, and thus continue to build that foundation by demonstrating
> that IT PAYS to be moral and ethical.
>
> c-da
>
> At 8:27 AM -0500 5/3/05, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
> > >The sanctimony of kharkhowas and other assorted desis in the USA or
> >in Europe >spring from the fact that they do not have to resort to
> >CORRUPTION, because >societies here have functioning institutions that
> >provide deterrence to profiting >from joining the crowd of corruption.
> > So they think they are children of superior >gods. And they admonish
> >those back in Assam to be like themselves.
> >>That is their solution.Infantile? Yes.
> >
> >C'da,
> >
> >Ah! are we at it again, preaching the preachers? :-)
> >
> >> You were probably too young, but there was a time when Indira Gandhi
> >> abolished democracy and instituted autocratic rule. You should have seen how
> >> India shaped up in a hurry. Why? Because there was this fear that if they
> >> did not, next stop might be the jail.
> >
> >While this is a solution, ie use the stick to teach these damn Indians
> >how to lead an uncorrupt life, IMHO we are really attacking the
> >SYMPTOM and not the disease.
> >
> >For a nation to be corruption-free (most of the time), public
> >consiciousness and ethics come into play. Individuals have the burden
> >not to fall into corruption whether big brother is looking or not.
> >
> >IMHO, if something like that cannot be achieved by a nation at some
> >level, then today, you may institute an autocratic rule to bring back
> >things in order. Tomorrow if you relax, corruption will be back. So,
> >ultimately, it all boils down to : Does the individual in a society
> >wants to be corruption-free? If a majority of the society wants a
> >country without corruption, you will have that country.
> >
> >--Ram
> >
> >
> >
> >On 5/3/05, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> That was a breath of fresh air Manoj.
> >>
> >> I was afraid I will suffocate from the exhaust of the experts whose world
> >> view is limited by the walls of the intellectual well they take refuse in,
> >> willingly.
> >>
> >> >we need another Gandhi today, just to fight corruption at the national
> >> level.
> >>
> >>
> >> *** There are many Gandhi like people in India. It might come as a surprise
> >> to some, but I will bet you a rupee that even in Assam such people could be
> >> found.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately Gandhis do not count any more.Besides, there has to be a CAUSE
> >> to energize people to flock to a Gandhi's leadership. People realize they
> >> live only once. There is too little time, and if they can't make it now,
> >> they never will. So they join the crowd. More than likely the sanctimonious
> >> Assam Net preachers would join the crowd too.
> >>
> >> However if there are consequences of joining the here-and-now crowd to be
> >> seen, like for example a few ministers, a few MPs a few IAS types, a few
> >> Governors, a few generals, a few CEOs going to prison, you will see the
> >> difference instantly.
> >>
> >> The sanctimony of kharkhowas and other assorted desis in the USA or in
> > > Europe spring from the fact that they do not have to resort to CORRUPTION,
> >> because societies here have functioning institutions that provide deterrence
> >> to profiting from joining the crowd of corruption. So they think they are
> >> children of superior gods. And they admonish those back in Assam to be like
> >> themselves.
> >> That is their solution.
> >>
> >> Infantile? Yes.
> >>
> >> You were probably too young, but there was a time when Indira Gandhi
> >> abolished democracy and instituted autocratic rule. You should have seen how
> >> India shaped up in a hurry. Why? Because there was this fear that if they
> > > did not, next stop might be the jail.
> >>
> >> Or take the ULFA in the beginning. They were applauded because they meted
> >> out summary justice on those widely known to be corrupt.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately neither autocracy, nor insurgent justice could be depended on
> >> to provide fair or just rule. Therefore there is little alternative but to
> >> depend on a FUNCTIONING democracy.
> >>
> >> That is where the problem is: the dysfunctional Indian state.
> >>
> >> How could that be made functional? Can that be achieved by a Gandhi, a
> >> Kalam, or an ABV or Assam Netters spouting pithy piety? You take a guess
> >> :-).
> >>
> >> It could be done ONLY by instituting dramatic reforms to India's democracy,
> >> where the essential institutions that form democratic rule begin to function
> >> like they need to. It must be done by its crop of leaders. Not one or a few
> >> icons like Gandhi or Mao -- but the collective intelligentsia.
> >>
> >> Is it possible ? Can India rise to close ranks in pursuit of a common goal
> >> for the entire nation?
> >>
> >> Unfortunately I don't believe so. It is just too fractured, its constituents
> >> have no commonality to come together on.
> >>
> >> But I would love to see myself being proven wrong.
> >>
> >>
> >> cm
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> At 6:14 AM +0000 5/3/05, manoj talukdar wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> In my humble opinion, corruption is not a problem that only the state of
> >> Assam face. The entire nation is in the grips of corruption like never
> >> before. the tv channel Star news broadcasts a sting progaramme called
> >> SANSANI at 11 pm, where they are unmasking a huge no of corrupt govt
> >> officers on a daily basis.
> >> To talk of fighting corruption in Assam only is I think not very practical,
> >> unless a similar movement engulfs the whole nation. I think , we need
> >> another Gandhi today, just to fight corruption at the national level.
> >>
> >> Manoj
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, 03 May 2005 Rajen Barua wrote :
> >> >NGOs are the lubricating oil for proper functioning of the Democracy. That
> >> I understand and you understand.
> >> >But the question is how to make the people of Assam understand.
> >> >That is the question to day.
> >> >Rajen da
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: umesh sharma
> >> > To: [email protected]
> >> > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 11:24 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: [Assam] something about corruption
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Rajen-da,
> >> >
> >> > If everyone is corrupt then only one person cannot make the change - it
> >> has to be a group efort. By refering to an NGO i meant a group who is
> >> concerned. A local group which can collect data and take concrete, positive
> >> action -- perhaps some student group - as a part time activity -do some
> >> research, collect data--with no strikes or demonstrations.
> >> >
> >> > Here in US I have learnt that research does have value--- the govt
> >> wouldn't do research to reveal its mistakes. Traditionally this role has
> >> been with the newspapers. But a reporter hardly has the resources or the
> >> time to do indepth study, given these times of sensationalism.
> >> >
> >> > So it must be with a group of educated people - maybe some educated
> >> housewives based in Assam -who can phone people and get data.
> >> >
> >> > Umesh
> >> >
> >> > Rajen Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> > >There are only three members of the society who can remove corruption
> >> ----They are father,mother and elementary school >teacher."
> >> >
> >> > I think what AK is saying has some truth in it.
> >> > First let us see what he is saying.
> >> > He is not saying that the parents and elementary school teachers of the
> >> present corrupt leaders were also corrupt, and that is why the present
> > > leaders are now corrupt. What he is saying, on the other hand, is that
> >> corruption is basically a moral issue, and that the parents and the teacher
> >> did not instill enough upon their children and students a high moral value
> >> in their time.
> >> >
> >> > This is however only one part of the equation, but a great part. This
> >> is a necessary but not a sufficient condition, we may say. In Indian
> >> corrupt socities, and Assamese in particular, we lack this morale education.
> >> In Assamese society now a days nobody really believe that" Xotyor xodai joi"
> > > >
> >> > I think the 20th century will go down in history as the worst century
> >> so far as morale value is concerned for various reasons.
> >> >
> >> > Another big part of the equation is that the society in which we live
> >> must not condone corruption if it wants to stop corruption. But in present
> >> Assamese society specially, we have been seeing that society not only
> >> condone corruption but actually encourages corruption. I still remember when
> >> I first joined Oil India long time ago, one of my uncles asked me, "Now that
> >> you joined this company, do you think you will have any 'bahira poisa'? And
> >> without 'bahira poisa' how do you think you will be able to manage in these
> >> hard days?"
> >> >
> >> > The above goes a long way to show how morally degraded the Assamese
> >> middle class have been. This may be new phenomenon in Assamese society may
> >> be developed after the WW-II; but that is the state of affair. The son is
> >> considered successful if he is able to buy good property in Guwahati, build
> >> a good house, and be rich. No question is ever asked in the family how he is
> >> making the money. It is a sign of unofficial recognition of a 'macho' man.
> >> He become such a 'macho' man that he even become eligible to criticise about
> >> corruption in government administration. He can even donate to the local
> >> Namghor and will be honored as a very religous man. Such is the stae of
> >> corruption in Assamese society.
> >> >
> >> > In western societies, both these parts are strong. They have a high
> >> morale elementary school education, strong Christian family values at home,
> >> and a society who does not condine corruption. That may be one reason why
> >> corruption is less here.
> >> >
> >> > There are various faces and aspects of corruption. Corruptioin is there
> >> in practically every society to some extent. But in my view it is worst in
> >> Assamese socity. Assamese society probably first learned of these corrupton
> >> from their elder brothers the Bengalis during the first phase of British
> >> rule in Assam. However, there is one alarming aspects of public corruption
> >> in Assam compared to the other states. While in other sates, in spite of
> >> corruption a project is get done may be at a higher cost. This can be seen
> >> fromn the results. But if road conditions and results of other projects in
> >> Assam are any measure, in Assam, all money seem to be spent simply in
> >> corruption itself, and no money is left for the project itself.
> >> >
> >> > It is like trying to fell an mango with a 'phormuthi'. Without sending
> >> a 'phormuthi' you cannot expect to get the mango. If we consider the
> >> 'phormuthi' as the corruption, in other states you loose the 'phormuthi' but
> >> at least you get the 'am' or mango. But in Assam, you send the 'phormuthi'
> >> and you loose both. This is what we say in Assamese : "Am-wo gol,
> >> phormuthi-wo gol'.
> >> >
> >> > The state of affairs shows a high moral degradation of in every lavel
> >> of the Assamese the society.
> >> > One clue to end the situation that the anti-process must be started at
> >> the bottom and at the top at the same time. But that is just a clue in my
> >> personal view.
> >> >
> >> > Rajen Barua
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> > To: [email protected]
> >> > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 8:54 PM
> >> > Subject: [Assam] something about corruption
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > What would be the best way to bring down the level of corruption to
> >> the minimum,if not completely,in a state like Assam? President A Kalam,in
> >> his Republic day address to the nation said " There are only three members
> > > of the society who can remove corruption ----They are father,mother and
> >> elementary school teacher."
> >> >
> >> > Is corruption then a problem of moral character ? Or,is it something
> >> to do with the transformation of our system?
> >> >
> >> > What is your view ?
> >> >
> >> > KJD
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> >
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