>---- Rajen pulls things out of his hat and therfore cannot be trusted.
*** I did not say any such thing. But if the shoe fits :-). > BTW, I did not get your point of your whole message other than trying to >show that---- *** The rest were in response to Ram's insinuations. Nothing there for Rajen to be worried about :-). Did you try to say anything? Are you trying to say that Tamil Tigers are doing it because they donot believe in religion? > From: "Rajen Barua" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 2005/05/18 Wed PM 05:25:27 EDT > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Ram Sarangapani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > "Roy, Santanu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > CC: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Dilip/Dil Deka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > "ASSAMNETCOLORADO" <assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu> > Subject: Re: Re: [Assam] It takes a village? > > > BTW, Islam expressly prohibits suicide. Rajen's assertion to the contrary is > > another assertion thast he pulled out of his hat. > > > Yes, I realize I am wrong in saying that suicide is permitted in Islam. Suicide is prohibited in Islam more categorically than in Hinduism may be. And I take the blame of your charge. That is my slip. I should not have said so. > > But the question remains which I asked: how then these SB derive strength for their point of SB in spite of such prohibition in religion. The answer is people twist Religion always to their side, by pass it wherever possible, whether it is the Muslim or the Christians or the Hindus. > > I think this is how they do it by the Suicide Bombers in Islam. > > In the Palestinian territories, those who support suicide bombing claim that it is merely a tactic of war in defense of their land and homes. Living under siege, and without the superior weaponry of their opponent, they see it as a heroic act of martyrdom, not suicide. In Israel, these attacks have usually been perpetrated by young men (and less often, women) who have lived their entire lives under humiliating occupation. In their point of view, it is a final act of resistance, stemming from desperation. It is not Suicide Bombing which the infidels may call. Now once you do that, you are back to square one. And if you go one step, they will say they are doing it just to defend Islam. > > That is my point. > > BTW, I did not get your point of your whole message other than trying to show that Rajen pulls things out of his hat and therfore cannot be trusted. Did you try to say anything? Are you trying to say that Tamil Tigers are doing it because they donot believe in religion? > > Rajen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Ram Sarangapani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roy, Santanu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "Rajen Barua" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Dilip/Dil Deka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "ASSAMNETCOLORADO" <assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu> > Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 3:21 PM > Subject: Re: Re: [Assam] It takes a village? > > > > >If its all politics > > >and desperation, why all the fuss about a 'holy war' or jihad? > > > > > > *** So why is killing in the name of democracy more just, than say, killing in > > the name of your religion? > > > > BTW, the earliest suicide bombers have been the Tamil Tigers in SriLanka. If I > > am noit mistaken, they preceded the Plestinians by several years. But even if I > > am mistaken on that front, the two grouops that used suicide bombing > > extensively were the Hindu Tamil Tigers and the Islamic Palestib nians. > > > > BTW, Islam expressly prohibits suicide. Rajen's assertion to the contrary is > > another assertion thast he pulled out of his hat. > > > > cm > > > > > > > > > From: Ram Sarangapani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Date: 2005/05/18 Wed PM 12:53:15 EDT > > > To: "Roy, Santanu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > CC: Rajen Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED], > > > Dilip/Dil Deka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > > > ASSAMNETCOLORADO <assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu> > > > Subject: Re: [Assam] It takes a village? > > > > > > > I totally disagree with the point of view that Islamic terrorists > > > > indulge in > > suicide >bombing because their religion asks them to .. > > > > Islamic terrorism is as much of a political movement founded in > > desperation as >any other violent insurgency movement. > > > > > > Of course, there is the political angle and the desperation. But in > > > the end, Palestinian or other jehadi types in our won backyard never > > > fail to invoke the teachings of the Koran to kill infidels. The > > > promise of virgins in heaven has been quoted very often (I would think > > > its from the Koran) - I will find the exact passages if you want. > > > > > > > I also see no moral superiority of someone who hurls a lethal bomb while > > >keeping himself or herself safe relative to someone who kills himself or > > herself in >the process. > > > > > > I agree, and I never made it out to be one. All I said was that there > > > is a difference. > > > That reason, is that one is driven by religious zeal (and political > > > desperation), while the other out of some political desperation, and > > > very little of that religious zeal. > > > > > > When Indians and Pakistanis go to war, for Indians its not 'Kaali mai > > > ki jai', its about Kashmir, about politics etc. But for Pakistanis, > > > its "Allah ho Akbar', Jihad, and then about Kashmir, territory. > > > > > > The closest any other religion came to religious war during the crusades. > > > > > > Maybe you can explain what the word "Jihad" means. If its all politics > > > and desperation, why all the fuss about a 'holy war' or jihad? > > > > > > I am not making moral judgements here. Just saying that reasons for > > > insurgencies are different -- some fight for God & country, while > > > others for country only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/18/05, Roy, Santanu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > I totally disagree with the point of view that Islamic terrorists > > > > indulge in > > suicide bombing because their religion asks them to and in the case of > > "others", its a matter of "sheer desperation or making a political statement". > > Islamic terrorism is as much of a political movement founded in desperation > > as any other violent insurgency movement. > > > > I also see no moral superiority of someone who hurls a lethal bomb while > > keeping himself or herself safe relative to someone who kills himself or > > herself in the process. > > > > S. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Ram Sarangapani [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 9:56 AM > > > > > To: Roy, Santanu > > > > > Cc: Rajen Barua; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Dilip/Dil Deka; > > > > > ASSAMNETCOLORADO > > > > > Subject: Re: [Assam] It takes a village? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMHO, Self immolations are not, in the true sense, a definition of > > > > > suicide bombers (SB). The SBs take lives along with themselves. I see > > > > > the difference something like hara-kiri and kamakazi. The Rajiv Gandhi > > > > > case is the only one I know of where other lives were taken. > > > > > > > > > > But that aside, SBs do so becuase they are desparate. Islamic SBs are > > > > > different in the sense that they are encouraged to do so (kill the > > > > > infidels & self) and one is granted you so many virgins for the > > > > > effort. > > > > > > > > > > Kamakazis (if I am not mistaken) owe their very lives to the Emperor > > > > > (not God, I think). > > > > > > > > > > If you find cases of Hindu SBs, the reasons are more out of sheer > > > > > desperation or making a political statement, and not because > > Hinduism > > > > > dictates or encourages it. > > > > > > > > > > During WWII, there were many US service men who would strap > > themselves > > > > > with grenades and blow up Germans (and themselves) -- die fighting. > > > > > > > > > > Would that be considered as sucide bombing? Most wouldn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/18/05, Roy, Santanu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Exactly what do you mean by a Hindu suicide bomber? Wasn't > > > > > Rajiv Gandhi > > > > > > assasinated by a "Hindu" who was also a suicide bomber? > > > > > Suidicide bombing is > > > > > > quite well and alive among the LTTE, almost all of whom are > > > > > "Hindus". Self > > > > > > immolation for political causes is rampant in south India. > > > > > > No society believes in suicide. And every society I know of > > > > > believes in > > > > > > martyrdom - in some form or the other. > > > > > > Santanu. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rajen > > > > > > Barua > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 9:06 AM > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Dilip/Dil Deka; ASSAMNETCOLORADO > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Assam] It takes a village? > > > > > > > > > > > > After all is said and done, there is another side of the > > > > > equation. One will > > > > > > have to answer why there is no Hindu suicide bomber or an > > > > > Assamese suicide > > > > > > bomber. And you don't have to struggle for the answer. > > > > > > It is because the Hindu society or Assamese society donot believe in > > > > > > suicide. Islam does. In Islam, one can go to haven by > > > > > committying suicide > > > > > > for the country. > > > > > > Rajen Barua > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > To: "Dilip/Dil Deka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > "ASSAMNETCOLORADO" > > > > > > <assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 9:33 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Assam] It takes a village? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >If you want to stop a wave of suicide bombings, the > > > > > likes of which we are > > > > > > > >seeing in Iraq, it takes a village. I am a big believer > > > > > that the greatest > > > > > > > >restraint on human behavior is not laws and police, but > > > > > culture and > > > > > > > >religious authority. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** That is a very interesting belief. It is a convenient > > > > > one, now that > > > > > > suicide- > > > > > > > bombings have become the norm in Iraq where none existed > > > > > and after > > > > > > > thousands of innocents have been slaughtered by US bombs > > > > > for which no > > > > > > > village nor religious outrage was anywhere to be seen or > > > > > heard, and > > > > > > > particularly since Iraqis had nothing to do with 9/11. I > > > > > don't recall > > > > > > Friedman's > > > > > > > outrage at the killing of Iraqi innocents by US bombing. > > > > > Where was his > > > > > > faith? > > > > > > > Where was his village of the righteous? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The politics of religion is no different from any other > > > > > poiltics. Suicide > > > > > > > bombing is an act of desperation against an overwhelming > > > > > enemy. It is > > > > > > > assymetrical warfare at its most assymetrical. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The expressions of outrage like Friedman's or those of > > > > > others who find > > > > > > > common cause with it is selective ast best, and thus will > > > > > go nowhere, as > > > > > > > history amply illustrates. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Dilip/Dil Deka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > Date: 2005/05/18 Wed AM 09:42:39 EDT > > > > > > > > To: ASSAMNETCOLORADO <assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu> > > > > > > > > Subject: [Assam] It takes a village? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From the article below, I quote, "In identifying the > > > > > problem, though, > > > > > > Mr. > > > > > > > Na'mat also identifies the solution. If you want to stop > > > > > a wave of suicide > > > > > > > bombings, the likes of which we are seeing in Iraq, it > > > > > takes a village. I > > > > > > am a > > > > > > > big believer that the greatest restraint on human > > > > > behavior is not laws and > > > > > > > police, but culture and religious authority. It is what > > > > > the community, > > > > > > what the > > > > > > > village, deems shameful. That is what restrains people. > > > > > So how do we get > > > > > > the > > > > > > > Sunni Arab village to delegitimize suicide bombers?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Laws and police, or shame on the perpetrators by means > > > > > of culture? Which > > > > > > > one do you think works better? Does religion (as Friedman > > > > > says) have any > > > > > > role > > > > > > > in bringing about restraint? > > > > > > > > Dilip > > > > > > > > Outrage and SilenceBy THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN > > > > > > > > Published: May 18, 2005 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is hard not to notice two contrasting stories that > > > > > have run side by > > > > > > side > > > > > > > during the past week. One is the story about the violent > > > > > protests in the > > > > > > > Muslim world triggered by a report in Newsweek (which the > > > > > magazine has > > > > > > > now retracted) that U.S. interrogators at Guant?namo Bay > > > > > desecrated a > > > > > > Koran > > > > > > > by throwing it into a toilet. In Afghanistan alone, at > > > > > least 16 people > > > > > > were > > > > > > > killed and more than 100 wounded in anti-American rioting > > > > > that has been > > > > > > > linked to that report. I certainly hope that Newsweek > > > > > story is incorrect, > > > > > > > because it would be outrageous if U.S. interrogators > > > > > behaved that way. > > > > > > > > That said, though, in the same newspapers one can read > > > > > the latest > > > > > > reports > > > > > > > from Iraq, where Baathist and jihadist suicide bombers > > > > > have killed 400 > > > > > > Iraqi > > > > > > > Muslims in the past month - most of them Shiite and > > > > > Kurdish civilians > > > > > > > shopping in markets, walking in funerals, going to > > > > > mosques or volunteering > > > > > > > to join the police. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet these mass murders - this desecration and > > > > > dismemberment of real > > > > > > > Muslims by other Muslims - have not prompted a single > > > > > protest march > > > > > > > anywhere in the Muslim world. And I have not read of a > > > > > single fatwa issued > > > > > > by > > > > > > > any Muslim cleric outside Iraq condemning these > > > > > indiscriminate mass > > > > > > > murders of Iraqi Shiites and Kurds by these jihadist > > > > > suicide bombers, many > > > > > > of > > > > > > > whom, according to a Washington Post report, are coming > > > > > from Saudi Arabia. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Muslim world's silence about the real desecration > > > > > of Iraqis, coupled > > > > > > > with its outrage over the alleged desecration of a Koran, > > > > > highlights what > > > > > > we > > > > > > > are up against in trying to stabilize Iraq - as well as > > > > > the only workable > > > > > > > strategy going forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The challenge we face in Iraq is so steep precisely > > > > > because the power > > > > > > shift > > > > > > > the U.S. and its allies are trying to engineer there is > > > > > so profound - in > > > > > > both > > > > > > > religious and political terms. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Religiously, if you want to know how the Sunni Arab > > > > > world views a > > > > > > Shiite's > > > > > > > being elected leader of Iraq, for the first time ever, > > > > > think about how > > > > > > whites in > > > > > > > Alabama would have felt about a black governor's being > > > > > installed there in > > > > > > > 1920. Some Sunnis do not think Shiites are authentic > > > > > Muslims, and are > > > > > > > indifferent to their brutalization. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At the same time, politically speaking, some Arab > > > > > regimes prefer to see > > > > > > the > > > > > > > pot boiling in Iraq so the democratization process can > > > > > never spread to > > > > > > their > > > > > > > countries. That's why their official newspapers rarely > > > > > describe the > > > > > > murders of > > > > > > > civilians in Iraq as a massacre or acts of terror. Such > > > > > crimes are usually > > > > > > > sanitized as "resistance" to occupation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Salama Na'mat, the Washington bureau chief for the > > > > > London-based Arabic > > > > > > > daily Al Hayat, wrote the other day: "What is the > > > > > responsibility of the > > > > > > [Arab] > > > > > > > regimes and the official and semiofficial media in the > > > > > countries bordering > > > > > > Iraq > > > > > > > in legitimizing the operations that murder Iraqis? ... > > > > > Isn't their goal to > > > > > > thwart > > > > > > > [the emergence of] the newborn democracy in Iraq so that > > > > > it won't spread > > > > > > in > > > > > > > the region?" (Translation by Memri.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In identifying the problem, though, Mr. Na'mat also > > > > > identifies the > > > > > > solution. > > > > > > > If you want to stop a wave of suicide bombings, the likes > > > > > of which we are > > > > > > > seeing in Iraq, it takes a village. I am a big believer > > > > > that the greatest > > > > > > restraint > > > > > > > on human behavior is not laws and police, but culture and > > > > > religious > > > > > > authority. > > > > > > > It is what the community, what the village, deems > > > > > shameful. That is what > > > > > > > restrains people. So how do we get the Sunni Arab village > > > > > to delegitimize > > > > > > > suicide bombers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Inside Iraq, obviously, credible Sunnis have to be > > > > > brought into the > > > > > > political > > > > > > > process and constitution-drafting, as long as they do not > > > > > have blood on > > > > > > their > > > > > > > hands from Saddam's days. And outside Iraq, the Bush team > > > > > needs to be > > > > > > > forcefully demanding that Saudi Arabia and other key Arab > > > > > allies use their > > > > > > > media, government and religious systems to denounce and > > > > > delegitimize the > > > > > > > despicable murder of Muslims by Muslims in Iraq. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the Arab world, its media and its spiritual leaders, > > > > > came out and > > > > > > > forcefully and repeatedly condemned those who mount these > > > > > suicide attacks, > > > > > > > and if credible Sunnis were given their fair share in the Iraqi > > > > > > government, I am > > > > > > > certain a lot of this suicide bombing would stop, as > > > > > happened with the > > > > > > > Palestinians. Iraqi Sunnis would pass on the intelligence > > > > > needed to > > > > > > prevent > > > > > > > these attacks, and they would deny the suicide bombers > > > > > the safe houses > > > > > > they > > > > > > > need to succeed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is the only way it stops, because we don't know > > > > > who is who. It > > > > > > takes > > > > > > > the village - and right now the Sunni Arab village needs > > > > > to be pressured > > > > > > and > > > > > > > induced to restrain those among them who are engaging in > > > > > these suicidal > > > > > > > murders of innocents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best way to honor the Koran is to live by the > > > > > values of mercy and > > > > > > > compassion that it propagates. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Assam mailing list > > > > > > > Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu > > > > > > > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mailing list FAQ: > > > > > > > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > > > > > > > To unsubscribe or change options: > > > > > > > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Assam mailing list > > > > > > > Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu > > > > > > > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mailing list FAQ: > > > > > > > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > > > > > > > To unsubscribe or change options: > > > > > > > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Assam mailing list > > > > > > Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu > > > > > > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > > > > > > > > > > > Mailing list FAQ: > > > > > > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > > > > > > To unsubscribe or change options: > > > > > > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam
