Hi all, Apologies for not responding to the initial emails sooner and for the length of my response.
I was asked by Muse to work on Audacity due to my experience working with the community on MuseScore. One of my main functions on that project (and now this project) is organising an 'internal' group of paid developers and designers, while also working closely with the community. The reason I mention this is because over at MuseScore, I have always made sure to do the following: - Communicate our plans and consult the community in advance - Advocate for resources to be dedicated to the community (better documentation, simpler build processes, a paid coordinator hired from the community, etc.) - Working with the community and providing design (and development support) to help their work get merged - I also advocate on the behalf of the community to make sure that the heads of Muse understand where they are coming from Things are not always perfect at MuseScore but we've now released some very significant improvements over the last 2 years and I would say that I have developed a very good relationship with our community. Part of this boils down to trust, which I recognise is sorely lacking among the Audacity community, who I have not yet really worked with or know (apart from the 'core' team who I know very well). The lack of trust is obviously largely due to the whole Temetry fiasco, which put us on the backfoot and contributed to us being painted in a very bad light. I want to address this first, since it was mentioned earlier that we are trying to sneak things past the community. As I mentioned in my response to the outcry about telemetry/google/yandex, the intention was never to include these things in Audacity without telling anyone. The pull request we created was meant to be published *at the same time as an announcement about it *to collect feedback. This way, we could explain why we were doing it while also allowing people to inspect the PR for themselves (this is exactly what we did on MuseScore). However, since the pull request was published early by one of our developers who didn't quite get the memo - an incredibly frustrating mistake - we lost the ability to make any announcement and have ever since been on the defensive. If you find this explanation suspicious, ask yourself a question: why would we publish a PR at all when we could simply merge it to master? Why would we call the PR 'Telemetry in Audacity' and explicitly call out Google and Yandex in the description? These aren't the actions of a bunch of people trying to be clandestine. When it comes to the CLA agreement, we did make an announcement <https://github.com/audacity/audacity/discussions/932> about it in advance and I made sure that the full range of possibilities were openly discussed so that contributors were as informed as possible. I can't expect anyone to take our word that we don't have crooked intentions but I feel the arguments for the CLA agreement are pretty strong. 1. The first thing to address is the profit motive. The CLA does make it possible for Muse to create a version of Audacity that is proprietary. However, this would be (from a business / profit perspective) utter insanity. The reason Muse acquired Audacity was because there is a strategic advantage to having a free, open source audio editor with a large audience as part of the Muse suite of apps. The proof of this can be seen with the success of MuseScore desktop (which has just been up-licensed to GPL3 in order to support VST3 and which has vastly improved since it was acquired in 2018). MuseScore desktop has a completely separate sister service called MuseScore.com, a website where people can find scores (user generated or professional). MuseScore.com makes money from subscriptions, which in turn funds the development of MuseScore desktop. This is exactly the kind of idea that Muse are developing in order to fund the ongoing development of Audacity. More information about this cloud/web service will be published as soon as possible (it takes time to build these things), however, you can rest assured that there is no intention to 'make Audacity proprietary' or to try to monetize it by hiding features behind a paywall or putting ads in it. We know that this would completely kill both the audience and the community in one fell swoop. I'm not appealing to trust here. I'm appealing to business logic. Audacity will be free and open source because it is in Muse's interest that it remains that way. 2. The CLA agreement (most likely) is not necessary for the development of a web service. The CLA needs to be set up so Muse can ensure that they have the flexibility to adapt to future unknowns (as seen before with the VLC situation). It's not the case that they are specifically preparing for the issues faced by VLC; they are preparing for what may be coming around the corner in 5-10 years. Distribution channels are changing constantly and they do not want to be in a situation where Audacity can not be distributed (or is limited in some other way) due to an inability to be flexible with the license. 3. It is possible that Muse may want to reuse code from Audacity in a proprietary application but there are no plans to do that. I mention it because it is technically possible and if I don't mention it, people will assume that this is actually the plan. >From my point of view, the reason I accepted this job is because I see it as a potentially wonderful compromise between FOSS and business (I find it wonderful for MuseScore). My job is to listen to users and lead the improvements of Audacity so that more people can get more out of it for free. If I succeed, then a small portion of those people may choose to use a separate web service to publish/share/store their audio, which will in turn fund more resources to continue to improve Audacity at pace. Who benefits? Users get a vastly improved application for free. Muse makes some money. Contributors get to keep working on software they love, knowing that the moment they become unhappy, they can fork Audacity (keeping all the new benefits contributed to by me and my team that they want to keep) and can continue on that fork instead. My personal interest is in the millions of users who can't afford DAW's or an exorbitant Adobe subscription, who just want some software to help them create a podcast, song, etc. I'm in this project for as long as that remains true and I'm happy for Muse to make some money in order for that to happen. For those who see the idea of anyone making money as a fundamental line that cannot be crossed, I don't share the same ideology but I respect it (God knows we've seen these things happen in the past). I imagine that you will not sign the CLA and I'm very sad that I won't get to work with you. I know that I have absolutely no right to expect anything from any of you but I would ask that you at least give us a chance to show the kinds of things we are thinking of building. Let us publish our design roadmap and then consider whether you are willing to stay with us a little longer. I may email once or twice in this thread if I've left anything crucial out but I'm not going to engage in back and forth conversation out of respect for those who may find it tiresome and who don't want to receive hundreds of emails today. We have set up a Discord server <https://discord.gg/DdCeASSW> for Audacity now, which I feel is more conducive to back-and-forth discussions. On MuseScore, some of our translators find it useful to converse on Discord, so we set up the same thing for Audacity too. I'll happily continue chatting there (although not until a little bit later today). Thanks a lot, Martin On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 10:06 AM Cleber Tavano <[email protected]> wrote: > Martin, hello there > > That's the main point here, they want us to sign an agreement so they can > change the license used at that time (gpl2+) to anything they want, > including any open or closed-source licenses. > > > > Em qua, 2 de jun de 2021 06:00, Martin Srebotnjak <[email protected]> > escreveu: > >> Our work is released under the license as Audacity at the time of our >> contributions. >> Muse must comply with that. >> They just need to change this sentence. >> No problem. >> >> Lp, m. >> >> V V sre., 2. jun. 2021 ob 10:44 je oseba Joachim Huffer < >> [email protected]> napisala: >> >>> Well, as I understand it, if I sign this CLA, I basically give Muse the >>> right to do whatever it wants with my translation: >>> >>> >>> - You grant MUSECY SM LTD, an affiliate of MuseScore and Ultimate >>> Guitar, (“Company”) the ability to use the Contributions in any way. You >>> hereby grant to Company , a perpetual, non-exclusive, worldwide, fully >>> paid-up, royalty free, irrevocable copyright license to reproduce, >>> prepare >>> derivative works of, publicly display, publicly perform, sublicense, and >>> distribute your Contribution and such derivative works. >>> >>> >>> So basically they could choose to start work on a proprietary closed >>> source version of Audacity and use the submitted translations there for >>> free. >>> >>> Joachim >>> >>> Am Mi., 2. Juni 2021 um 10:22 Uhr schrieb Thomas De Rocker < >>> [email protected]>: >>> >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> Is it really that big of a deal? The way I understand, it's only to >>>> prevent any legal issues in the future, no? >>>> >>>> *[...] This license is not only for the **protection of the >>>> contributors** themselves, but also for the **protection of the >>>> project and its users**; it does **not change your rights to use your >>>> own Contributions for any other purpose** [...]* >>>> >>>> *The license agreement is a legal document in which you state you are >>>> entitled to contribute the code to Audacity and are willing to have it used >>>> in distributions and derivative works. This means that should there be any >>>> kind of legal issue in the future as to the origins and ownership of any >>>> particular piece of code, Audacity has the necessary forms on file from the >>>> contributor(s) saying they were permitted to make this contribution.* >>>> >>>> *The CLA also ensures that once you have provided a contribution, you >>>> **cannot >>>> try to withdraw permission for its use at a later date**. People and >>>> companies can therefore use Audacity, confident that they will not be asked >>>> to **stop using pieces of the code at a later date**.* >>>> >>>> *Being able to make a clear statement about the origins of the code is >>>> very important as Audacity is adopted by large organizations who are >>>> necessarily cautious about adopting products with unknown origins. We wish >>>> for Audacity to be used and distributed as widely as possible and in order >>>> to do this with confidence, we need to be sure about the origins and >>>> continuing existence of the code.* >>>> >>>> *Can I withdraw permission to use my contributions at a later date?* >>>> >>>> *No. This is one of the reasons Audacity requires a CLA. No **individual >>>> contributor can hold such a threat **over the entire community of >>>> users. Once you make a contribution, you are saying MUSECY SM LTD (an >>>> affiliate of MuseScore and Ultimate Guitar) can use that piece of code >>>> forever.* >>>> >>>> Full version here: https://www.audacityteam.org/cla/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Please don't make any rash decisions... Forking the project and thereby >>>> splitting the Audacity community could have bad consequences (I'm thinking >>>> about OpenOffice vs LibreOffice). >>>> Please... try to *communicate* first, asking *why* decisions are made, >>>> to prevent jumping to conclusions. >>>> >>>> I sincerely hope we can continue to put our energy and time in the *same >>>> project*. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Thomas >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *Van:* Martin Srebotnjak <[email protected]> >>>> *Verzonden:* woensdag 2 juni 2021 9:00 >>>> *Aan:* [email protected] < >>>> [email protected]> >>>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [Audacity-translation] CONTRIBUTOR LICENSE AGREEMENT >>>> - time to fork? >>>> >>>> Helo, >>>> >>>> I totally agree with you. Let's fork. >>>> >>>> Lp, m. >>>> >>>> V V sre., 2. jun. 2021 ob 08:10 je oseba Cleber Tavano < >>>> [email protected]> napisala: >>>> >>>> Hello everybody, >>>> >>>> Again, I learned from the press that Audacity is changing everything in >>>> licensing and "forgot" to let us know why or what they're doing. >>>> Now we're asked to give in all our contributions under a murky and >>>> uncertainly-worded license agreement that will grant Muse the right to do >>>> whatever they want for good. >>>> >>>> I contribute to this software since the very beginning and I'm proud >>>> that Audacity is such an important tool used in schools around my country >>>> and that my translations made it happen. >>>> But I'm NOT an employee of Muse and I'll never be. I refuse to sign a >>>> CLA giving to these guys completely and perpetual rights over my work, >>>> including even taking my contributions and change how it's licensed. >>>> I had agreed to work under the gpl license, not to give in my rights >>>> for an "agreement" that can't even be clear about how it will be used. >>>> If I wanted to get my work used in a proprietary software, I wouldn't >>>> commit it in a GPLed project. >>>> >>>> Unless you people at Muse come with something completely different from >>>> the terms of the proposed agreement, I'll kindly ask you to retreat my >>>> contributions because I won't agree with this draconian license. >>>> >>>> First the telemetry, now this. >>>> >>>> I can't help but think that IT'S TIME TO FORK AUDACITY and let Muse do >>>> whatever they want to the code they can prove is theirs. >>>> >>>> Cleber >>>> PT_br translator >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Audacity-translation mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-translation >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Audacity-translation mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-translation >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Audacity-translation mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-translation >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Audacity-translation mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-translation >> > _______________________________________________ > Audacity-translation mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-translation >
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