Re: I feel like college is changing my friend
I wrote a point-by-point reply to Andy's last post, then decided it was a bad idea.
Let's debate theology, instead:
"For the creature was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that's God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW"
As much as Paul's "I'm right, and it is obvious, and if you disagree you are evil" attitude is utterly contemptable, he said the above in the very same book.
So, which is it? Is Paul right, or is everything wrong with the world the result of Free Will?
"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS"
... What with God explicitly taking credit for it, and all.
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not"
Notice the "from the beginning" part.
"And the Lord said unto SATAN, Behold, he [Job] is in your hand; but save his life"
Sounds like Satan is still doing God's dirtywork.
"And God saw EVERY THING that He had made, and, behold, it was VERY GOOD..."
Including Satan, who we just read was a murder from the beginning.
Do people "choose" to disbelieve? To send themselves to Hell based on perfect knowledge? Let's ask:
"In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, LEST the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, SHOULD SHINE UNTO THEM"
Wait, what about that whole Lucifer thing?
Luckily, everyone cites the exact chapter and verse on that one. Not-so-luckily, no one actually reads it.
Let's:
14
The Lord will have compassion on Jacob;
once again he will choose Israel
and will settle them in their own land.
Foreigners will join them
and unite with the descendants of Jacob.
2
Nations will take them
and bring them to their own place.
And Israel will take possession of the nations
and make them male and female servants in the Lord’s land.
They will make captives of their captors
and rule over their oppressors.
3 On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury[a] has ended!
5
The Lord has broken the rod of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,
6
which in anger struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
and in fury subdued nations
with relentless aggression.
7
All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.
8
Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon
gloat over you and say,
“Now that you have been laid low,
no one comes to cut us down.”
9
The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.
10
They will all respond,
they will say to you,
“You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us.”
11
All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.
12
How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13
You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
14
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
15
But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.
16
Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
17
the man who made the world a wilderness,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”
18
All the kings of the nations lie in state,
each in his own tomb.
19
But you are cast out of your tomb
like a rejected branch;
you are covered with the slain,
with those pierced by the sword,
those who descend to the stones of the pit.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
20
you will not join them in burial,
for you have destroyed your land
and killed your people.
Let the offspring of the wicked
never be mentioned again.
21
Prepare a place to slaughter his children
for the sins of their ancestors;
they are not to rise to inherit the land
and cover the earth with their cities.
22
“I will rise up against them,”
declares the Lord Almighty.
“I will wipe out Babylon’s name and survivors,
her offspring and descendants,”
declares the Lord.
23
“I will turn her into a place for owls
and into swampland;
I will sweep her with the broom of destruction,”
declares the Lord Almighty.
24 The Lord Almighty has sworn,
“Surely, as I have planned, so it will be,
and as I have purposed, so it will happen.
25
I will crush the Assyrian in my land;
on my mountains I will trample him down.
His yoke will be taken from my people,
and his burden removed from their shoulders.”
26
This is the plan determined for the whole world;
this is the hand stretched out over all nations.
27
For the Lord Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him?
His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?
Emphasis on those last two sentences, after you've noticed the subject of the rest of it.
(For bonus points, consider the kaballistic implications.)
Show me the verse where God gives humans and angels free will, and I will do the other part where we have to figure out how it does not contradict all of the above.
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