Yep. As sad as it might seem, things will have to change. Of course club committees will cry foul and suggest that implementing this will mean the demise of the club.
I think he GFA should look at supporting a flagship club or two to trial this. By support I mean fund any loss if it doesn't work. I would think a couple of clubs with different profiles might work as a trial to learn about the efficacy of the idea. E.G One club with > 100 members, and another with <30 We might actually learn something. Or a club could even offer two training schemes. 1. Is the sit around all day and take what you can get (Free) 2. Is the fully commercial model Explain the reality and timeframe to learn. See what people opt for???? On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:21 PM, Robert Izatt <thebunyipboo...@gmail.com> wrote: > Right on the money LOL and nothing like getting paid to make you realise > that your labour as an instructor has real value and that time is in fact > valuable to you and the client. It doesn’t have to be sheep stations. > Compensate the instructors for their expenses - getting to the field, > memberships, let alone their experience. You don’t have to do it for anyone > else > > > On 31 Jan. 2017, at 11:38 am, Mark Fisher <m...@spe.com.au> wrote: > > If we made one small change, i.e. pay instructors, the flow on from that > would self organise. > There is nothing like a paying consumer to figure out what is value and > what is not. > > Natural selection in play. > > Cheers > Mark > > > > > On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Greg Wilson <g...@gregwilson.id.au> > wrote: > >> I've had the same experience:- A few years ago I introduced a friend to >> gliding. He enjoyed the flying but wasn't prepared to spend all day hanging >> around for his turn in the glider. Instead he went to the private gliding >> school that was operating at Byron Bay at the time. He much preferred to >> pay more to book a lesson and turn up knowing he'd be in a glider a few >> minutes of his arrival and leaving directly after the flight. >> >> Lake Keepit is a great solution to learning gliding but people need to >> experience the joy of gliding and decide to invest their time and money and >> travel to spend a few days there. How many other every day year-round >> gliding schools are there in Australia? >> >> Clubs could offer options to students: >> >> 1. Pay the club rate for renting a 2 seater or motor glider. Turn up >> early and help get the glider out and wait your turn to fly. >> >> or >> >> 2. Pay a premium rate for a booked appointment with a glider and >> instructor ready. >> >> Providing both isn't going to be easy to implement in a club situation. >> Club members still need to do the work of D/I ing and shifting gliders etc, >> but it's not impossible and I'm fairly sure it's what people want. >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Greg Wilson >> >> >> >> >> ---- On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 10:46:46 +1100 *Robert Izatt >> <thebunyipboo...@gmail.com <thebunyipboo...@gmail.com>>* wrote ---- >> >> and >> Classic example - my son is a RAAF Instructor and a couple of the young >> guys in his squadron wanted to try gliding so he sent them to his old club. >> They went out paid their money and sat all day and helped push and retrieve >> gliders and finally got a short flight about 3 in the afternoon. They went >> back individually the next weekend, same thing, and one missed out because >> the weather came in late. They didn’t make a fuss about what they did for a >> living or their actual skill levels - no one knew. They just couldn’t >> invest that much time on a weekend. They didn’t go back. I have seen this >> dozens of times >> >> >> On 30 Jan. 2017, at 8:10 pm, James McDowall <james.mcdowal...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> I first came into contact with gliding in the early 1960's when my father >> took up gliding to satisfy an itch dating back to the late 1940's when he >> helped build a glider that ultimately ended up with the fledgling ASC. >> In those days, many people would spend their weekends (or perhaps do a >> two week course) sitting on the side of the airfield in all sorts of >> weather waiting for the chance to do a few circuits or if they were really >> lucky a soaring flight. Time wasn't an issue and no one thought too much >> about spending their Saturday nights in primitive accommodation. >> Fifty plus years later society has changed and flying for most is >> regarded in the same as taking a bus trip. The wonder of flying has been >> lost on most. Our WW2 pilots who formed the backbone of post war GA and >> recreational flying are gone as is the connection with their exploits - how >> many kids today will rub shoulders with a RAAF pilot, let alone one who has >> seen active service? >> Many sports are struggling to attract newcomers - especially in country >> areas which were the backbone of gliding. Tennis courts are ploughed under, >> football clubs merging to stay afloat and even bowls clubs closing. >> Whilst there are many reasons one only has to talk to fathers with school >> age children. Their weekends are driven by activities planned around the >> kids. These activities are so highly organised to be risk free and >> non-competitive you really wonder if there is any long lasting benefit to >> anyone as their seems to be no sense of achievement. Throw in the thuggery >> of social media and non-conformance is not tolerated. Taking the kids to an >> airfield to sit on the edge of an airfield all day would probably be >> regarded as a form of child abuse! >> But the biggest factor governing human behaviour today is TIME. Whether >> it is true or not the community is convinced that it is time poor - so poor >> that we cant even cook for ourselves for example. Everything we consider >> buying is now presented as so many dollars per week or month - we live in >> pay by the month society. This is not conducive to a discretionary spend >> like flying. Add to this that there has been no real increase in wages for >> about a decade there is little doubt that or many in the community who >> would have been attracted to gliding fifty years ago can no longer consider >> it on economic grounds alone. >> Unless gliding restructures itself to reflect the time constraints of >> society it will most certainly die. Unless students can make an appointment >> to take a lesson for example the completion rate of students will decline. >> Unless gliding aligns its independent operator rules with RA-Aus and RPL >> requirements and lets motor glider operations occur beyond the club system >> it will lose those people. It must embrace self launching and see any other >> form of launch as ancient history. >> The future of gliding requires the GFA to look into the future and at the >> society around them, and recognise that the club, state association and >> national association model is dead and re-model the relationship between >> itself and the gliding fraternity. OR if that is too hard hand the whole >> lot over to RA-Aus or ELAAA if they will have the disfunctional mess. >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 6:29 PM, Richard Frawley <rjfraw...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> i suggest you have a reader failure then, do try a reboot. >> >> >> >> > On 30 Jan 2017, at 6:08 PM, Mike Borgelt <mborg...@internode.on.net> >> wrote: >> > >> > My iPad sometimes tells me " this message has no content" >> > I'm surprised it didn't in this case. >> > >> > Mike >> > >> >> On 30 Jan 2017, at 2:33 PM, Richard Frawley <rjfraw...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> interesting, but in the end perhaps irrelevant. >> >> >> >> Analysis will show that the base driving interest that was present in >> the primary age group during the halcyon period no longer exists and likely >> never will again. There was in the people of that time an unsatisfied >> latent demand to express themselves through control and command that flying >> gave purpose to. What developed via clubs was in response to an inherent >> demand and limitations of that time. >> >> >> >> That core need is no longer apparent in the wider community. Flying no >> longer offers natural attraction but to a small number of our population, >> which by observation is getting smaller and smaller. As such there is no >> longer the need for response in the manner that was previously provided. >> >> >> >> As to what gliding will be in 20 years time will matter little in >> terms of what the GFA does today. As needs change and new services are >> required then those services will be provisioned if demand is sufficient, >> as that is the way of things human. >> >> >> >> As new people do cycle into GFA management on a regular basis, that is >> a good thing, as flexibility and adaption are likely to be the nett result >> which is what i observed during my 3 years on the exec. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On 30 Jan 2017, at 3:50 PM, emillis prelgauskas < >> emi...@emilis.sa.on.net> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Thank you all for the delightful conversation at ‘GFA negative >> advertising……' >> >>> >> >>> I thought I’d start fresh, on some items that move away from that >> thread above. >> >>> >> >>> It surprises me that the ‘but you are bashing the GFA’ legion didn’t >> pipe up. >> >>> Perhaps it was because GFA are bashing themselves up in their Pravda >> list. >> >>> >> >>> There are diverse views across the glider pilot nation about what GFA >> is: >> >>> - Some see GFA as being the whole of ’the sport'. >> >>> - Some see GFA as an administrative benefit or necessity to the sport >> >>> - Some (me) see this 67 year old organisation as having had its day >> and now being in its own generated death throes. >> >>> >> >>> For all the reasons already enunciated by others - self destructive, >> dictatorial, creating silos of irrelevant hierarchal positions which will >> never be filled because there aren’t enough volunteers left, and so on. >> >>> >> >>> The biggest hurdle for GFA is the loss within itself in its corporate >> knowledge - all the current incumbents came into a fully formed sport and >> try to re-imagine it in their own image without a skeric of understanding >> of how things came to be. (e.g. they don’t know what ‘the Valentine Curve’ >> is) >> >>> ‘Those who don’t know their history are bound to repeat it’. >> >>> >> >>> With the benefit of longevity and a curiosity to track things (yes, I >> am the dude who did the quantitative measuring of successful and defunct >> clubs for the whole of Australia in the 1970s) I advise - >> >>> >> >>> - In 1949 the GFA was formed to be the barrier between glider pilots >> and ‘the Department’ >> >>> - where glider pilots said ‘WE are the people who know how gliders >> work, they are not power planes, so we set rules appropriate to us >> >>> - helped by the proposition (a la ‘The Castle’) that the Australian >> Constitution does not regulate aviation (which didn’t exist when it was >> first written), hence aviation is regulated federally only by the consensus >> of the aviation community >> >>> >> >>> - That original bottom up driven model of regulation of the sport by >> the sport, in the best examples of participatory democracy, lasted until >> 1981 >> >>> - By then the sport had grown to 100 clubs, about 5000 pilots, and >> enthusiasm and volunteer inputs to ‘our sport’ which got it there and was >> propelling it even higher >> >>> - So GFA has never been ‘the sport’, it has always been the external >> peripheral administrative element that we ‘needed to have’, and was thus >> always kept as small as possible. >> >>> >> >>> - So in 1981 the world changed, yes Richard, you are right. The >> system was re-written and has been re-written several more times since, by >> incumbents of their day who saw a great sport, and thought re-imagining it >> in their own image would both serve the sport and themselves well. >> >>> >> >>> - So gliding the sport declined to 2000 pilots in 50 or so clubs, >> with the unstated direction being the demise of the small clubs (less than >> 20 members), leaving commercial servicing, schools and big clubs. >> >>> >> >>> We are indeed on track in that direction. >> >>> >> >>> The barriers to achieving the goals of that objective (a more >> ‘professional' sport) is that it is being pressed onto the old model of >> volunteer cadre to achieve. >> >>> And people not being stupid, say things (as per the previous thread) >> ‘ ‘why would I work at making my kind of gliding fail or be inaccessible?’, >> and stuff like that. >> >>> >> >>> Gliding is not a franchise that GFA owns. So people choose to bale >> out when the onerous impositions exceed the benefit to them, assessed >> against their definition of ‘the sport’. With many then going to other >> sport aviation; a barrier to hoped-for flow the other way. (Their tales of >> woe unimpress aviators from other sport) >> >>> >> >>> GFA does not control gliding, despite continuous threats and >> intimidation issued by it/them. Glider pilots agree to follow rules that >> make sense because these keep us alive. GFA is overlaying this with rules >> addressing ‘fear of litigation’ against themselves, to be shifted onto the >> volunteers. >> >>> >> >>> The current conversation, either in its form today or some future >> time, will result in the demise of the GFA. Glider pilots will find their >> own way to fly the kind of sport each group within the sport wants. >> >>> GFA doesn’t have the budget to follow through the promotion and >> support to create the sport in their image. >> >>> All the attempts so far (since 1981 to date) have thoroughly failed >> as noted above, and will continue to fail. >> >>> >> >>> Pilots and clubs (particularly the small ones) are right now debating >> internally what sort of sport they want. Paying lip service to ‘the >> authority’ and getting on with flying safely is a reality since 1924 (the >> oldest glider I have in my 2 dozen collection). >> >>> >> >>> Some pilots and clubs will decide to be ‘mucking about in boats’ >> style volunteering, and will attract like minded people. >> >>> Some pilots and clubs will go ‘hire & fly’ with commercial support; >> and ditto. >> >>> And all the other variants between. >> >>> And really few pilots will aspire to the GFA view of itself. >> >>> >> >>> Welcome to the real world folks. >> >>> >> >>> Emilis >> >>> (turn rant mode off) >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Aus-soaring mailing list >> >>> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au >> >>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> >> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au >> >> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Aus-soaring mailing list >> > Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au >> > http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au >> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au >> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au >> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au >> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> > > > -- > Mark Fisher > Managing Director > Swift Performance Equipment > Unit 2, 1472 Boundary Rd > Wacol 4076 > Australia > Ph: +61 7 3879 3005 <(07)%203879%203005> > Fax: +61 7 36076277 > www.spe.com.au > > > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au > http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au > http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring > > -- Mark Fisher Managing Director Swift Performance Equipment Unit 2, 1472 Boundary Rd Wacol 4076 Australia Ph: +61 7 3879 3005 Fax: +61 7 36076277 www.spe.com.au
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