Hi Sandy, Sorry, one last thing I spotted. There's been an "is" added in Section 3.3 that changes the meaning of the text. The intended meaning is that the security strength offered is either the digest algorithm's strength, or the strength of the ML-DSA parameter set, depending on which value is lower. The text change suggested below to reverts the change and suggests alternative text to make this a bit clearer, but of course I'm happy for it to be tweaked as is required:
OLD: The overall security strength offered by an ML-DSA signature calculated over signed attributes is the floor of the digest algorithm's strength and is the strength of the ML-DSA parameter set. NEW: The overall security strength offered by an ML-DSA signature calculated over signed attributes is constrained by either the digest algorithm's strength or the strength of the ML-DSA parameter set, whichever is lower. Otherwise, everything looks good to go to me. Thanks, Adam ________________________________ From: Sandy Ginoza <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2025 20:22 To: Adam R <[email protected]> Cc: Ben S3 <[email protected]>; RFC Editor <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]>; Russ Housley <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: AUTH48: RFC-to-be 9882 <draft-ietf-lamps-cms-ml-dsa-07> for your review [You don't often get email from [email protected]. Learn why this is important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ] Hi Adam and Ben, The document has been updated as described below. 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Thank you, Sandy Ginoza RFC Production Center > On Oct 10, 2025, at 8:05 AM, Adam R <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi Sandy, > > • The authors (Ben included) have had a discussion on this and we think > we can just remove "traditional" entirely; describing the algorithm as a > "post-quantum" algorithm as we have elsewhere in the document conveys the > intended meaning. > > OLD: > The Module-Lattice-Based Digital Signature Algorithm (ML-DSA) is a digital > signature algorithm standardised by the US National Institute of Standards > and Technology (NIST) as part of their post-quantum cryptography > standardisation process. > It is intended to be secure against both "traditional" cryptographic attacks, > as well as attacks utilising a quantum computer. > > NEW: > The Module-Lattice-Based Digital Signature Algorithm (ML-DSA) is a > post-quantum digital signature algorithm standardised by the US National > Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) as part of their post-quantum > cryptography standardisation process. > > • We've discussed with the authors of dilithium-certs and Deb, and are > content that the meaning of the text is the same in both instances and hence > no wording changes are required. > > • I also think this is fine. > > • Base64-encoded examples seem somewhat rare in CMS RFCs, I had a quick > look at recent examples and I only found RFC 9690. That RFC tags its examples > as artwork. The examples in question aren't X.509, so I would leave them > as-is or tag as artwork. If Russ has an opinion (as an author of RFC 9690 and > many more CMS RFCs), I'd go with that. > > • I agree with Ben. > > I agree with Ben's typo correction for Section 6, and suggest an additional > change to give that table a title: > OLD: > <table anchor="oid"> > <thead> > <tr> > <th>Decimal</th> > <th>Description</th> > <th>Refernece</th> > </tr> > </thead> > <tbody> > <tr> > <td>83</td> > <td>id-mod-ml-dsa-2024</td> > <td>RFC 9882</td> > </tr> > </tbody> > </table> > > NEW: > <table anchor="oid"> > <name>Object Identifier Assignments</name> > <thead> > <tr> > <th>Decimal</th> > <th>Description</th> > <th>Reference</th> > </tr> > </thead> > <tbody> > <tr> > <td>83</td> > <td>id-mod-ml-dsa-2024</td> > <td>RFC 9882</td> > </tr> > </tbody> > </table> > > > I would suggest one other grammatical change in Section 5: > > OLD: > If ML-DSA signing is implemented in a hardware device such as the hardware > security module (HSM) or portable cryptographic token, implementers might > want to avoid sending the full content to the device for performance reasons. > > NEW: > If ML-DSA signing is implemented in a hardware device such as a hardware > security module (HSM) or a portable cryptographic token, implementers might > want to avoid sending the full content to the device for performance reasons. > > Thanks, > > Adam > > From: Ben S3 <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2025 08:15 > To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; Adam R > <[email protected]>; [email protected] > <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected] <[email protected]>; [email protected] > <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]>; > [email protected] <[email protected]>; [email protected] > <[email protected]> > Subject: RE: AUTH48: RFC-to-be 9882 <draft-ietf-lamps-cms-ml-dsa-07> for your > review > > Thanks Sandy! > > To the specific points below: > > 1) Use of "Traditional" in our draft is intended to mirror the use of > traditional in RFC 9794. Traditional cryptographic algorithms are meant to be > secure against traditional cryptographic attacks, whereas PQ algorithms are > secure against both traditional and quantum attacks. Whilst not explicitly > defined, the terminology is precise enough that it is fully understood in the > post-quantum context. I'd therefore leave it as it is. > > 2) I agree they should be the same, but I think I prefer our wording. I'll > reach out to the authors of dilithium-certs. > > 3) Fine by me. > > 4) These are not X.509 artefacts, so I propose leaving the type attribute > unset. > > 5) I've reviewed the guidance - I believe our document has no inclusivity > concerns. > > Additional points: > > Section 6: > > OLD: > +=========+====================+===========+ > | Decimal | Description | Refernece | > +=========+====================+===========+ > | 83 | id-mod-ml-dsa-2024 | RFC 9882 | > +---------+--------------------+-----------+ > > NEW: > +=========+====================+===========+ > | Decimal | Description | Reference | > +=========+====================+===========+ > | 83 | id-mod-ml-dsa-2024 | RFC 9882 | > +---------+--------------------+-----------+ > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] <[email protected]> > Sent: 10 October 2025 00:56 > To: Ben S3 <[email protected]>; Adam R <[email protected]>; > [email protected] > Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; > [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: Re: AUTH48: RFC-to-be 9882 <draft-ietf-lamps-cms-ml-dsa-07> for your > review > > Authors, > > While reviewing this document during AUTH48, please resolve (as necessary) > the following questions, which are also in the source file. > > 1) <!-- [rfced] We note that "traditional" is in quotes, but please consider > whether it should be updated for clarity. The term is ambiguous; "tradition" > is a subjective term because it is not the same for everyone. > > Original: > It is intended to be secure > against both "traditional" cryptographic attacks, as well as attacks > utilising a quantum computer. > --> > > > 2) <!-- [rfced] The following was provided in response to the intake form: > > This document and draft-ietf-lamps-dilithium-certificates use > the same text for one of the security considerations: "ML-DSA > depends on high quality random numbers...". That paragraph > should be kept the same between both documents. > > Should the paragraphs be identical? They do not currently match. Please > review and let us know how you would like to proceed. > > Currently in RFC-to-be 9881 <draft-ietf-lamps-dilithium-certificates>: > ML-DSA depends on high quality random numbers that are suitable for > use in cryptography. The use of inadequate pseudo-random number > generators (PRNGs) to generate such values can significantly > undermine various security properties. For instance, using an > inadequate PRNG for key generation might allow an attacker to > efficiently recover the private key by trying a small set of > possibilities, rather than brute-force searching the whole keyspace. > The generation of random numbers of a sufficient level of quality for > use in cryptography is difficult; see Section 3.6.1 of [FIPS204] for > some additional information. > --> > > > 3) <!-- [rfced] [CSOR] FYI: We have updated the date for this reference from > 20 August 2024 to 13 June 2025 to match the information provided at the URL. > --> > > > 4) <!-- [rfced] Regarding the text marked <sourcecode> and <artwork>, please > review and let us know if any updates are needed. The following was provided > in response via the intake form: > > The draft features an ASN.1 module that is tagged as source code > in the XML. The module has been tested to confirm that it compiles. > The draft also features example encodings in base64/PEM format and > in a parsed representation. These are artefacts produced by an > implementation rather than "source code" per se, so aren't tagged > that way. Regardless, we've tested the examples against an independent > implementation to make sure they work. > > Please consider whether some should be marked as "x509" for consistency with > RFC-to-be 9881 <draft-ietf-lamps-dilithium-certificates>, as the authors of > RFC 9881 provided the following guidance: > > And the PEM examples in the Appendix C.3 can become type “x509”. > > RFC-to-be 9881 has not yet been updated. > > Note that the current list of preferred values for "type" is available at > <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rfc-editor.org%2Frpc%2Fwiki%2Fdoku.php%3Fid%3Dsourcecode-types&data=05%7C02%7CAdam.r%40ncsc.gov.uk%7Cdb7d96e5cb2346297b2008de08332eaf%7C14aa5744ece1474ea2d734f46dda64a1%7C0%7C0%7C638957213268369318%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2FvZG8aXo3FUtJemb9RG3zCCB%2FHBv1ZzpBp0U%2BnfRTHU%3D&reserved=0<https://www.rfc-editor.org/rpc/wiki/doku.php?id=sourcecode-types>>. > If the current list does not contain an applicable type, feel free to suggest > additions for consideration. 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Updates of this nature typically > result in more precise language, which is helpful for readers. > > Note that our script did not flag any words in particular, but this should > still be reviewed as a best practice. > --> > > > Thank you. > Sandy Ginoza > RFC Production Center > > > > On Oct 9, 2025, at 4:51 PM, [email protected] wrote: > > *****IMPORTANT***** > > Updated 2025/10/09 > > RFC Author(s): > -------------- > > Instructions for Completing AUTH48 > > Your document has now entered AUTH48. 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Salter, A. Raine, D. Van Geest > WG Chair(s) : Russ Housley, Tim Hollebeek > Area Director(s) : Deb Cooley, Paul Wouters
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