Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but I cannot help but wonder if the support level is not affected by Covalent now selling support for Axis and Covalent's close relationship with current and former Axis developers (some of whom work for Covalent). Has commercialism made its way into the open source ranks?
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Paul Barry Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 12:55 PM To: axis-user@ws.apache.org Subject: Re: I give up I will agree that on this mailing list, so far, the few questions that I have asked have gone unresponded to (granted I just asked my last question yesterday). But in general, I have found open source support to be superior to commerce support. I haven't worked with Microsoft specifically, but other support I get from commercial products is usually an email address or phone number that goes to a general help desk. This people typically have less knowledge about the product than I do. They can't conceptualize the problem I am having and they usually just run through a list of typical problems and solutions. Open source projects, when they have a good community surrounding them, are just the opposite. You are getting support directly from the experts. As long as you do your work to isolate the problem and report the information about the problem, most of the time you will get a solution to your problem. So I guess my point is I can't really speak to this community yet, because I haven't been participating in it yet for long enough, but just because you have had a bad experience with this oepn source project, don't say that commercial support is better than open source. If you want to attack the axis community specifically, fine, but there are a lot of open source projects that have communities that offer a lot of help. You are making broad generalizations about M$ vs. open source based on your experience with one open source community. On 10/28/05, McPhail, Jeff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I must say that I'm also extremely disappointed with Axis and > this usergroup. I didn't like the fact that you have to sign up to > receive ALL emails in order to participate -- I've never seen this > before. So because I was in a jam and needed and answer, I joined and > asked my question. I posted the question 5 times in different forms over > a 3 week period and didn't get one response -- nothing. > So I then tried to unsubscribe and it didn't work. I followed > the instructions in the auto-reply given for troubleshooting > unsubscribes and that didn't work. So I emailed the administrator (his > email was in the autoreply, but of course nowhere to be found on the > axis site) and got a reply about 3 days later telling me that the reason > that my unsubscribe didn't work was because my email address was not on > the list. So I responded assuring him that I am still on the list and am > getting hundreds of messages a week (to my work email mind you) and I > added a copy of the email header of one of the list emails I received > with my email return path etc. -- I got no response. Also since the > sender in the list emails is not axis-user@ws.apache.org but instead the > individual senders address, I can't even mark them as spam to filter > them (not a very smart setup, not to mention the privacy issues). This > is becoming a real nuisance and it appears that I have no recourse. I've > tried emailing the general Apache help and got no response, and of > course there is not a single phone number on the either the apache or > axis web sites. > This is bush league support. No wonder so many people prefer to > use Microsoft products. Maybe not all of their solutions are optimal > (although I'm not sure how true this is anymore) but everything is much > easier to implement, and interconnect with different technologies under > the Microsoft umbrella. And when you have a problem, the support sites > available are much superior -- I've never posted an issue about a > microsoft product where I didn't have it solved within a day or two. The > open source concept is great when you're a student and can't afford to > fork over a grand or two for software, but when you use it for business > apps and factor in the time to implement and the extra tens of thousands > of dollars in man hours per year to fix bugs, Microsoft is a much > cheaper solution. > > I would be extremely grateful to anyone to can tell me how to get off of > this list. Thank you. > > Cheers, > > Jeff. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Grillo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 10:15 AM > To: axis-user@ws.apache.org > Cc: axis-dev@ws.apache.org > Subject: RE: I give up > > I would like to add that, to a large extent, I feel Kurt's pain. We > used Axis 1.2 to deploy a single SOAP service that was required of us by > one of our major partners that dictated a .NET interface complete with > SOAP element signature, timestamp, and encryption. I will say that we > got this working very nicely. I am appreciative of the work. I will > say that my interactions with the WSS4J folks was extremely helpful, and > I thank them very much. So, that is a great success and I thank > everybody that contributed. > > Now as I look to go a little more mainstream within the rest of our > products at our company, I began taking a closer look at Axis, including > java data binding dependencies which are critical because of the various > products our company produces that will need to adhere to the bound XSD > Objects. I need to insure that I have some independence when choosing > this piece of the puzzle. > > I have looked at AXIS and AXIS2. I have had a few questions related to > this. My major frustration is as my inability to get answers to what I > thought were fairly simple questions. Perhaps they are either not > simple, or thought as stupid. I'm not talking just about zeroing in on > a bug and submitting it to JIRA, I'm talking about some input about even > "whether" something is doable, not just how. > > Now before anybody comes down on me, I am fully aware of where my > expectations should be vis a vis open source software, mailing lists, > etc. I do not feel that I am owed anything when using this software. I > have found, however, a little more help in other areas when using open > source. I have, in fact, solved a myriad of problems on my own within > Axis. I find myself in the bowels of the code trying to figure out what > it's doing etc, so to solve my own problems. I do, however, have to > factor in the time spent to research and solve these issues. > > I have posted several questions and generally do not even get a > response, or an I don't know, though I suppose the lack of a response is > an I don't know. So, it's gotten to the point where I don't bother. In > terms of Axis, I feel that I need to go in another direction simply > because of my inability to get a straight answer around data binding > support (for example) now or in the future in Axis or in Axis2. I have > asked what I believe is a simple question, whether a particular class > that seems like it should be thread safe is so (just another example). > Generally speaking if somebody asked me about most any class I've > designed and built as to whether it was designed that way, I could come > up with an answer. Yet, no answer. Yes, yes, if a class is not > advertised as Threadsafe, consider that it isn't. Lack of > documentation, however, doesn't confirm the default assumption. > > But my bigger concern is the unknown. I don't have confidence that when > and if I run into future problems I can find the resources or help to > get around problems. Perhaps my expectations are much too high. Of > other products that we use and have had very good success is Hibernate, > Castor, WSS4J (as mentioned above). I just don't get a comfortable > feeling when working with Axis ... > > Okay, I'm big enough for somebody to tell me to not let the door hit me > in the you know where as I leave. Again, I'm not angry, I'm not even > largely disappointed. I've just been forced to make a decision based on > what is... > > Perhaps in awhile I'll return to see what's up with Axis2. > > -paul > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Davanum Srinivas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 11:07 PM > To: axis-user@ws.apache.org > Cc: axis-dev@ws.apache.org > Subject: Re: I give up > > Kurt, > > Looking at your postings, i don't see much from you in terms of engaging > the user or developer community to ask for help. > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=axis-dev&w=2&r=1&s=olsen&q=b > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=axis-user&w=2&r=1&s=olsen&q=b > > Your specific email to Tom > (http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=axis-dev&m=112801670512125&w=2)...i > have no clue how to help. i did reply back to a prev mail on that thread > (http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=axis-dev&m=112692662128194&w=2) > > If you have a problem with Macromedia or eBay folks, We can't really > help. If you have a problem with latest releases of Axis, we can help if > you add JIRA bugs (and chase us!) on the axis-dev@ list. If you need > production/development support, there are avenues for that as well. > > Am sorry you had a bad experience, thanks for the feedback. > > -- dims > > On 10/27/05, Kurt Olsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Folks, I hate to say it but I had to ditch axis. Way too difficult. > And we > > won't be using it in the future. > > > > > > > > Our application has approx 30 vendors we communicate with using SOAP. > > > > Approx 25 of them are implemented by simply creating strings and > firing them > > off, then parsing out the reply. > > > > Primitive but fairly easy to do. > > > > > > > > The other 5 used axis. At the moment we're using the ColdFusion > server. When > > we upgraded to java 5 and coldfusion mx7 our axis based connectors > broke. > > > > It took approximately 2 weeks to diagnose and 'solve' the problem. > Axis used > > commons-logging, and commons-logging broke. That required fairly > > > > major surgery to the coldfusion classpath. Pieces of commons-logging > we're > > coming in off of different classloaders. > > > > > > > > So technically speaking, commons-logging broke - not axis > but.....since axis > > brought the flaw to life, and has given us grief (probably the CF > > integration) in the past, it is axis that got the bad reputation due > to the > > fact that it was at the top of the food chain. The two weeks solving > this > > problem wasn't totally wasted because it exposed a fairly large flaw > in the > > overall architecture. > > > > > > > > After getting the existing connectors to work again, I had to turn my > > attention to the next connector in the pipeline - eBay via Soap.... > > > > Only one problem - eBay's sdk is written against java 1.4 and axis 1.1 > - > > while we upgraded to java 5 and axis 1.2 > > > > After another week of trying various 'workarounds' etc I was forced to > give > > up and will have to communicate with eBay using the "create strings" > > technique. > > > > > > > > Bottom line is that the overall cost of the 'SOAP' system and it's > co-horts > > in crime is un-managable given our quarterly release cycle. > > > > I'm disappointed that after all that effor to modernize - the goal > really > > wasn't accomplished. > > > > > > > > I fully understand the various issues involved, most of which aren't > really > > axis's fault but - any way I slice it this entire exercise felt > exactly like > > trying to use the J2EE 1.3/1.4 ejb specifications. Big, confusing, > hard to > > use etc.....And I predict will eventually be abandoned (or at least > buried > > beneath a convienence API). > > > > > > > > This is just one co's experience of course but I submit to you that as > you > > continue your development you might want to consider the overall > 'cost' that > > SOAP and it's tools are exacting on the community. This simply has to > get > > easier because as it stands both the other developers (who watched > over my > > shoulder so to speak) and myself have simply given up on an 'easy' > tool fix. > > Our experience is that SOAP is a diaster and costing virtually > everyone in > > corporate programming a lot of money and lost sleep.... > > > > > > > > Thanks for listening, and please remember that I'm taking the time to > write > > this not to complain (well, maybe a little) but to provide feedback > from the > > field. > > > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > Kurt Olsen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/ > > > > > ************************************************************** > This message, including any attachments, contains confidential information > intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If > you are not the intended recipient, please contact sender immediately by > reply e-mail and destroy all copies. You are hereby notified that any > disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any > action based on it, is strictly prohibited. > TIAA-CREF > ************************************************************** > > ************************************************************** This message, including any attachments, contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies. You are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. TIAA-CREF **************************************************************
