Hi John, Yes, it's not a sin. But clearly the Church does believe that the devil might have been involved in the first baptism, and they need to exorcise it better. I guess it makes that makes the first one a satanic rite instead of a sin.
I understand the need for a second baptism, just to make sure. And I know that a rite of exorcism is part of baptism anyway. But clearly something is fishy about the need to state the exorcism explicitly. My theory about that is the one above - a need to affirm the power of the Church. Granted, it's my personal opinion, and I don't have time to research that deeper. I just find it funny from the records that they exorcise only on second baptisms. I'm assuming that the record reflects the rite and a stronger exorcise was performed on those babies. João C. Ventura On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 3:50:13 PM UTC+1, John Raposo wrote: > > The practice is the same today. It was never a sin (and still is not) for > a layman to baptize a child in case the child was at risk of dying before > baptism. Note many children "batizado pela partrira", or "a avó" (the > midwife or the grandmother). That is still the case today. However, the > baptism is then recorded in the church where the child would have been > baptized and and another baptism "sub condicione" is performed in case > there was anything invalid about the first baptism (like not using the > Trinitarian formula). In hospitals throughout the US, many Christian (not > necessarily Catholic) laymen, e.g. obstetricians, nurses, etc, baptize > babies who are born with a potentially life threatening conditions, with > the permission of the parent, of course. > > Thank you for the clarification. > > John > > > > On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 7:45 AM, João Ventura > <jo...@venturas.org<javascript:>> > wrote: > Hello, Terri (and John), > > My experience in seeing the baptism records is that the priest conducts an > exorcism when the children had already been baptized by a non-priest. In > some circumstances, people believed the baby would die without being > baptized so they'd baptize them themselves. However, since these people > were not priests, before the second baptism, the priest would perform a > symbolic exorcism. > > In the records above, if you look carefully, you'll notice the reference > to the prior 'lay' baptism, which motivated the need for the exorcism. > > In the early Christian church, any Christian could baptize another. But > the power of the church would be threatened if normal people started doing > these rites.. Indeed, between 1860 and 1910, Portugal kept passing laws to > create a Civil Register, so that the birth, marriage and death certificates > could be managed by the Government and not the Church. Always with little > results, until the Monarchy was abolished and the civil society took that > power from them. I guess the exorcism was done to show the people that they > had sinned in baptizing the baby, and that a real priest was needed. > > João C. Ventura > > On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 12:36:43 PM UTC+1, John Raposo wrote: > > As I understand it, it was and still is part of the Baptismal ceremony. > Baptism is the pouring of the water over the head baptizing "in the name of > the Father,,,," etc. But before you get to the point, there is the > anointing with holy oils and the priest applying a grain or two of salt on > his thumb to the mouth of the baby. And then there is the rejection of > Satan, declared on the baby's behalf by the Godparents. Although I am not a > priest, I think the salt applied to the lips initiates a symbollic > expulsion of Satan from the newborn leaving him clean and open to receiving > Christ. Maybe there is a priest or religious on the list that can provide > clearer (and more accurate) information. > > John Miranda Raposo > > > > On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 12:12 AM, Terri <ter...@rogers.com> wrote: > I found it creepy by interesting that in a few baptism records I needed > for children in Ginetes, the word 'exorcismos' appeared. This does mean > exorcisms by a priest were performed right? or does this word have ANOTHER > meaning in Portuguese? I've attached two records below. > > Terri Santos > Researching Agua d'Alto, Agua de Pau, Ginetes, Vila Franca do Campo Sao > Pedro and Sao Miguel > -- > For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail > (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/ > group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this > group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Azores Genealogy" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to azores+un...@ googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to azo...@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/ group/azores. > > > > -- > For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail > (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the > right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my > membership." > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Azores Genealogy" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to azores+un...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to azo...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores. > > > -- For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership." --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Azores Genealogy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to azores@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/azores.
