On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:00:38 -0000, Khazeh Fananapazir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear Gilberto > In a message [...] > you write in relation to two passages below that it appears as if Dr Mark > Foster's point contradicts the Utterance of the Sacred Iqan Gilberto: Sure. The passage you chose to quote as a response to what he said, didn't really seem to complement his comments. It more seemed to go against the spirit of what he said. > The Passage in question is: > **** Such a condition as this is witnessed in this day when the reins of > every community have fallen into the grasp of foolish leaders, who lead > after their own whims and desire. On their tongue the mention of God hath > become an empty name; in their midst His holy Word a dead letter. Such is > the sway of their desires, that the lamp of conscience and reason hath been > quenched in their hearts, [rest deleted for brevity] > (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 29-30)**** And what Mark said was: "I would never be so presumptuous to say that a divinely revealed religion, or branch of that religion, was "dead." I know too many Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. who are inspired by their own respective scriptures." Gilberto: And so Mark seems to be saying he would never call a divinely revealed religion "dead" because he knows too many members of those religions who continue to be inspired by their religion. On the other hand, the passage you quote from the writings say that "every community" has fallen into the grasp of foolish leaders. That for them the holy word has become a dead letter. That the lamp of conscience and reason has been quenched (put out) in their hearts. That's a pretty scathing criticism of those communities. Khazeh: > I really do not see a contradiction. I will explain respectfully if you will > be so kind as to give me your precious time. Gilberto: Of course. Khazeh: > In the Baha'I Revelation the Sacred Scriptures are kept sacred > Please I beg you to look at this carefully > *** it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Baha'u'llah > upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes > firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, PRESERVES > INVIOLATE THE SANCTITY OF THEIR AUTHENTIC SCRIPTURES, DISCLAIMS ANY > INTENTION OF LOWERING THE STATUS OF THEIR FOUNDERS OR OF ABATING THE > SPIRITUAL IDEALS THEY INCULCATE, clarifies and correlates their functions, > reaffirms their common, their unchangeable and fundamental purpose, > reconciles their seemingly divergent claims and doctrines, readily and > gratefully recognizes their respective contributions to the gradual > Unfoldment of one Divine Revelation, unhesitatingly acknowledges itself to > be but one link in the chain of continually progressive Revelations, > supplements their teachings with such laws and ordinances as conform to the > imperative needs, and are dictated by the growing receptivity, of a fast > evolving and constantly changing society**** > (Shoghi Effendi: God Passes By, Page: 100) Gilberto: Yes. But I think we've gone over this. Yes, Bahais say the Quran is the word of God. Yes Bahais say Muhammad is a Manifestation. Yes, Bahais even say that the imams are similar to the manifestations in certain respects. But Bahais also say that the leaders of the Muslims (among other communites) are foolish men who follow their own whims and desires and in whose hearts the lamps of reason and conscience have been quenched. Yes, Bahais say some good things about Islam and some bad things about Muslims. One doesn't erase the other. They just make the picture more complex. About Nahjul Balagha, I'm not sure if you really addressed the point. In your own words, what are you trying to say with the passage you quoted? Again, in the Bahai writings isn't the phrase "People of the Quran" a reference to Muslims (as opposed to Bahais)? The passage you are quoting talks about MUSLIMS still existing and being persecuted ; exiled and expelled. I mean, if you are going to say that there will be (or even that we are in the middle of) a growing materialism which will make society more and more corrupt, more and more violent, more and more hypocritical, etc. you won't get any argument from me. But the passage doesn't say that then Islamic law will be abrogated and the Bahais will take over. It talks about the People of the Quran. > From Nahjul Balaagha Sermon 146 > ** On the future > Certainly, a time will come upon you after me when nothing will be more > concealed than rightfulness, nothing more apparent than wrongfulness and > nothing more current than untruth against God and His Prophet. FOR THE > PEOPLE OF THIS PERIOD NOTHING WILL BE MORE VALUELESS THAN THE QUR'ÁN BEING > RECITED AS IT OUGHT TO BE RECITED, NOR ANYTHING MORE VALUABLE THAN THE > QUR'ÁN BEING MISPLACED FROM ITS POSITION. And in the towns nothing will be > more hated than virtue, nor anything more acceptable than vice. The > holders of the book will throw it away and its memorizers would forget it. > In these days the Qur'án and its people will be exiled and expelled. They > will be companions keeping together on one path, but no one will offer them > asylum. CONSEQUENTLY AT THIS TIME THE QUR'ÁN AND ITS PEOPLE WILL BE AMONG > THE PEOPLE BUT NOT AMONG THEM, WILL BE WITH THEM BUT NOT WITH THEM, BECAUSE > MISGUIDANCE CANNOT ACCORD WITH GUIDANCE EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY BE TOGETHER. > The people will have united on division and will therefore have cut away > from the community, as though they were the leaders of the Qur'án and not > the Qur'án their leader. Nothing of it will be left with them except its > name, and they will know nothing save its writing and its words. Khazeh > AS to the Status of Nahjul Balaagha [Peak of Eloquence] the Martyr Prophet > the Bab mentions it in His Writings [in the Panj Sha'n] > And previously the Immortal Shaykh Ahmad al-Ah.sai mentions its [Nahj's] > emanation from the Imam 'Ali Gilberto: So would it be fair to say that the Nahjul Balagha is completely endorsed by the Bahai faith? Are the writings and teachings of Ahmad al-Ahsai also completely endorsed? Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
