On 1/25/06, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> No, you don't understand, Gilberto. ...
Please, carefully read what I'm saying before responding. I don't
believe you are paying sufficient attention because you seem to just
be missing the point.
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
> > On 1/24/06, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > You keep talking about minor details. I'm talking about foundational
> > > issues. Shi`ah believes that Abu-Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman wrongfully
> > > usurped `Ali's legitimate position as the Prophet's vicar and authroized
> > > interpreter of the Word of God. No Sunni would ever agree to that.
Gilberto:
> > And you don't understand me. I'm not saying Sunnis will turn into
> > Shias or that Shias will turn into Sunnis. What I'm saying is that
> > both can accept one another as Muslims and disagree without being
> > disagreeable.
Iskandar, the above is the point which I believe you are missing. Your
response only seems to be addressing the point that Sunnis and Shias
disagree about certain issues. I understand that. I agree to that.
Sunnis believe somethings which Shias don't believe. And vice-versa.
The point is that the disagreement doesn't have to rise to the level
of disbelief.
That's the point that you are completely ignoring.
ISkandar:
> > > Here is my neck of woods there is a fine Pakistani restaurant, owned by a
> > > Shi`ah. The Imam of the Sunni mosque here declared him a kAfir, because he
> > > serves alcoholic bevergaes in his restaurant. Owners of other (but Sunni)
> > > restaurant businesses who also serve alcoholic beverages have not been
> > > publicly condemned. Alcohol is a minor issue here, a ruse, a subterfuge.
Gilberto:
> > I would actually disagree. In alot of inner-city neighborhoods there
> > is a problem where immigrant "Muslims" come in and run liquor stores
> > in African-American communities. In Oakland recently there was an
> > issue where Black Muslims actually vandalized liquor stores owned by
> > immigrant Muslims. Similar tensions exist in the Detroit/Dearborn
> > area. Immigrant Muslims who run liquor stores are actually really bad
> > and hypocritical representatives for Islam and I have no interest in
> > defending their behavior in any way except to say that even if they
> > are Shia, they are still Muslim... bad Muslims... but Muslims.
Iskandar:
> You disagree with what? You disagree with the Sunni Imam here in my neck
> of woods who issued a takfir order against a Shi`ah restaurant owner?
Gilberto:
I have no reason to follow some nameless random Sunni Imam in your
neck of the woods. Islam (even Sunni Islam) is not defined by whatever
is said by some random nameless Sunni Imam in your neck of the woods
teaches. I have a *very* healthy sense of skepticism when it comes to
following what "some guy" tells me does or does not teach. Think about
how Bahais talk about Kitab-i-Hearsay. And that comes from Bahais
telling other Bahais about the Bahai faith. Now think about how much
weight I'm going to give to a Bahai telling me what Islam teaches,
especially when I've read more authoritative statements from scholars
I actually respect, who say otherwise.
Iskandar:
> > > The foundational issue is the Shi`ah-Sunni conflict on who was the
> > > legitimate interpreter of the Quran after the Prophet Muhammad and who was
> > > His legitimate successor.
Gilberto:
> > From a Sunni perspective, what you are saying seems silly because
> > Sunnis aren't anti-Ali. In your mind this is really contentious but
> > from mine it isn't.
Iskanbdar:
> From a Shi`ah standpoint, it's quite foundational and not silly at all.
> For a Sunni, `Ali was a successor (to `UthmAn) just equal to the other
> three Caliphs and he is not regarded by Sunni Muslims as m`asum or
> infallible.
Gilberto:
I'm pretty sure I've discussed this before on this list or if not
soc.religion.bahai.
And this is another point which, in my opinion you are totally
ignoring and not addressing in any way, shape or form.
Most Sunni Sufi tariqts trace their chains through Ali. (Do you know
what that means?). And all of the major old ones include at least a
few of the Shia Imams in their chains. And in particular, there are
Sunni Sufis who actually have a concept of the Perfect Man (Insan
Al-Kamil) and there are many Sunnis who would apply this title to Ali.
(Do you understand what I"m saying?)
That's not necesarily the same as believing in the Imamate, but I
would argue that the differences are technical and stupid to argue
about.
-Gilberto
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