The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Continuing...
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Gilberto Simpson <
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
> <iskandar....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Gilberto;
> > Thanks for your message.
>
> You are welcome.
>
> > A couple of points, since we are discussing differences:
> > Cleanliness and "litAAfat" (both physical purity and cleanliness and
> > spiritual, mental cleanliness, purity of thought, purity of mind) is
> > certainly very much encouraged in the Baha'i Faith.
>
> Yes, I agree. That is also highly emphasized in Islam. There is even a
> hadith which says that "cleanliness is half of faith".
>
Yes, I was aware of that hadith. Cleanliness is definitely taught in Islam.
"najas" concept is not part of Baha'i teachings and laws.
>
> > What is absent is the
> > concept of "najas" as in Surah of Towbeh (9th Surah) of the Quran.
>
> I understand what you are refering to. The verse which says "idolaters
> are unclean". I understand that some scholars (especially) Shia may
> have a different view but do you believe me when I tell you that the
> Hanafi school (which is what I'm most familiar with, and which is the
> largest of the four Sunni schools) reads that particular verse
> spiritually? It does not say that the living body of a polytheist is
> najis? It says that polythesist can even enter the Kaaba?
>
Oh, I certainly do believe you and understand what you say from a Hanafi
point of view. I do welcome and appreciate a spiritual and metaphorical
reading of that verse in Surah of Towbeh. I disagree that at the time of its
revelation it was meant to be understood spiritually exclusively and not
literally. Immediately afterwards, it advises the believer Muslims that they
should not have any concern about loss of trade, business, or income from
literally observing the law and not allowing the najas unbelievers in Mecca.
It is obvious that a literal reading was required back then.
>
> Also, I found something interesting. Further down in this same surah,
> there is a verse which talks about how unbelievers responded to the
> revelation of the Quran.
>
> [9.125] And as for those in whose hearts is a disease, it adds
> uncleanness to their uncleanness and they die while they are
> unbelievers.
>
> I understand that the Kitab-I-Aqdas says: "God hath, likewise, as a
> bounty from His presence, abolished the concept of "uncleanness",
> whereby divers things and peoples have been held to be impure." and I
> admit there are differences between the Muslim laws regarding what is
> "clean" and "not clean" for the purposes of prayer and the Bahai
> concept.
>
> So even though according to one quote people are no longer "impure" or
> "unclean" isn't there a concept of "spiritual diseases" in the Bahai
> faith where certain people are construed to have a contagious
> spiritual disease and should be shunned? I understand how a different
> word is used but don't you also see a little bit of similarity there
> as well?
>
> for the next point, let me just put the context back in:
>
>
> >> > For me as a Baha'i, the idea that at some point in time (e.g., in 632)
> >> > God decided to go into permanent retirement and leave humanity to its
> own
> >> > devices forever, with-holding His grace and bounty forever, is
> unacceptable
> >> > and far from His loving kindness, justice, and mercy.
>
> >> And as I'm sure we've discussed before, even Muslims who insist that
> >> no more prophets and messengers are coming are still perfectly willing
> >> to accept the continuing appearance of imams, mujaddids, mujtahids,
> >> qutbs, awliya and even manifestations (insan al-kamil) who continue to
> >> receive and share guidance from Allah even in the form of kashf and
> >> ilham. And the point about insan-al-kamil is actually important
> >> because I know Sunni Muslims who say that such people are alive today
> >> (perfectly polished souls who reflect the Attributes of Allah). In
> >> other words Muslims who are open to the idea that such manifestations
> >> are alive in the world today but the Bahais due to literal
> >> interpretations and "clouds" in the writings would treat such a person
> >> like a "lying impostor".
>
> > I was not talking about mujaddids or mujtahids or imams, or saints, etc.
> I
> > am talking about a Person Who comes with a Revelation (new Revelation)
> > direct from God because the mujaddid or mujtahid does not have any
> authority
> > to change/abrogate any law.
>
> It just seems to me like you are talking about two separate things,
> and at one point the bar is one place and now you moved it elsewhere.
> First you started talking about God going into retirement and
> withholding His grace and bounty on humanity. And I hope it is clear
> that is nowhere near the Islamic position. There are many different
> ways which according to Islam, God continues to cause special
> individuals to appear to provide guidance, to revive religious truth,
> and to manifest his mercy on the world. And actually if you look up
> kashf (unveiling) and ilham (inspiration) you would see that even some
> form of "revelation" can continue as well. (e.g. one example which
> many would accept are the "Meccan Revelations" of Ibn Arabi)
>
> Now if you want to talk about new people coming to change the laws I
> would suggest that especially if you allow for the possibility of
> living mujtahids (a living person who is qualified to derive rulings
> directly from the sources) then Islamic law is still very flexible.
> But I understand if you disagree.
>
Yes, I do disagree. Bringing a new Revelation ("wahy"), a new Dispensation,
a new religion with new laws and ordinances, etc., and bringing a new "amr"
(Cause) and the issue of Seal of the Prophets are inter-related. The
mujtahid or mujaddid, etc, cannot change the law that is in the Quran no
matter how flexible he tries to be. He cannot change the fasting from
Ramadan to March, for example. He cannot change the pilgrimage site from
Kaabah to some other place; etc., etc. We Baha'i believe that no one can
change the laws of the Kitab-i-Aqdas until God sends another Manifestation
of God, another Divine Physician, another Divine Educator who will speak
with God's authority and voice. And we believe that Baha'u'llah is *not* the
last Envoy nor the last Manifestation of God. If you believe that Muhammad
was the last Prophet, no one can ever claim to speak with God's authority,
nor to change or abrogate any of the laws of the Quran. But you already knew
that.
>
>
> > Regarding your question about "a lying impostor", etc. I would say that
> if
> > someone claims to have a Revelation direct from God, then I should do an
> > unfettered and independent investigation of the issue and try to
> determine
> > with my own judgement if s/he is true or a lying impostor.
>
> Just to make it more clear, Bahaullah says in the Aqdas:
>
> "Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the
> expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying
> impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and
> repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive
> him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly,
> send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is
> God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its
> obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy
> which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your
> idle fancies. Nay, rather, follow the bidding of your Lord, the
> Almighty, the All-Wise. Erelong shall clamorous voices be raised in
> most lands. Shun them, O My people, and follow not the iniquitous and
> evil-hearted. This is that of which We gave you forewarning when We
> were dwelling in ‘Iráq, then later while in the Land of Mystery, and
> now from this Resplendent Spot."
>
> And what you are saying is that as a Bahai, as someone who believes in
> Bahaullah who wrote the above, that if someone appeared laying "Claim
> to a Revelation direct from God" you would tell yourself "maybe 1000
> years doesn't really mean a thousand years", risk being deprived of
> God's mercy, and follow your own judgement on the persons' claim based
> on whether it "spoke to you"?
>
I believe that provided I, as a Baha'i, sincerely follow Baha'u'llah's
instructions in His Book of Certitude (Kitab-i-Iqan) conscientiously and
closely when He talks about the pre-requisites of an unfettered and
independent investigation of truth, etc. if/when someone lays claim to a new
Revelation (amr or wahy) from God to bring a new religion, that God will
help me reach the right conclusion as long as I am a true seeker. I suppose
you might be familiar with that sections in the Iqan in which He talks about
the conditions and pre-requisites of a true seeker. They are quite profound
and fascinating.
Thanks for your attention and I hope I was able to clarify some points.
Best regards,
Iskandar
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