The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto; Thanks for your message.
A couple of points, since we are discussing differences: Cleanliness and "litAAfat" (both physical purity and cleanliness and spiritual, mental cleanliness, purity of thought, purity of mind) is certainly very much encouraged in the Baha'i Faith. What is absent is the concept of "najas" as in Surah of Towbeh (9th Surah) of the Quran. As I am a practicing Baha'i believer and you are a practicing Muslim, you obviously think that the Islamic law and teaching is better than the Baha'i teachings and law. Or, do you believe that the Baha'i law is better? I was not talking about mujaddids or mujtahids or imams, or saints, etc. I am talking about a Person Who comes with a Revelation (new Revelation) direct from God because the mujaddid or mujtahid does not have any authority to change/abrogate any law. Only God Himself who first gave the law can do that; and He alone can change and abrogate it. This is the Baha'i position, as I understand it. The Baha'i understanding of "the Seal of the Prophets" is different from the *current* muslim understanding of the concept. Recent research has shown that early Muslims had a very different understanding of the issue. Baha'is view and interpret the Seal of the Prophets with different explanations and from different angles and viewpoints. Why is that confusing? There is a diversity of readings and interpretations. Regarding your question about "a lying impostor", etc. I would say that if someone claims to have a Revelation direct from God, then I should do an unfettered and independent investigation of the issue and try to determine with my own judgement if s/he is true or a lying impostor. In the process, by the way, Baha'is do not expect that claimant to perform magical acts such as levitating instantaneously from Mecca to Jerusalem, etc. These are theatrics and they are way beneath the station and claim of a person who claims to be the Divine Educator and Physician for the ills of humanity. At the end of the day, I should hear her/him speak to my heart with the voice and authority of God (just as I hear the voice of God when I read the Quran or the Kitab-i-Aqdas) before I believe in Her/Him. Best regards, Iskandar On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Gilberto Simpson < gilberto.simp...@gmail.com> wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:53 AM, <iskandar....@gmail.com> wrote: > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > > As I said, I was trying to wrap up and I am reluctant to make detailed > comments about the following. It looks like Matt Haase understood at least > some of the points I made. > > I actually agree with what Matt said about finding common ground. > That's why the whole dynamic of this thread seems so bizarre to me. To > just go back to the original topic... both Islam and the Bahai faith > require a kind of ablution or washing before the required prayers. > Both Islam and the Bahai faith include instructions to pray in clean > clothes and on a clean surface. Both Islam and the Bahai faith have > suggestions to use perfume and scent in this context as well. Both > Islam and the Bahai faith have slightly different rules regarding > menstruating women and prayer. So it seems to me pretty obvious that > both Islam and the Bahai faith have a similar (not identical but > similar) approach to prayer and cleanliness. But when I point this out > it feels like folks are going to great lengths to deny this. So > instead of saying "Yes, look at all this wonderful common ground" it > feels like you want to emphasize the differences (which I would guess > in your mind would make the Bahai faith better). > > I think it was similarly weird when Susan was recently trying maintain > and emphasize the distinction between Bahai and Muslim ways of > understanding the Bible. > > > > > However, I find Gilberto's comment about the Baha'i understanding of the > issue of finality (Seal of the Prophets, etc.) and his reference to Baha'i > "metaphysical obfuscation" very unhelpful and insulting. > > No insult was intended. > > > He owes an apology to the Baha'is on this list. The concept is very > lucid, coherent, rational, in full agreement with the general theme and > thrust of all religions and Sacred Scriptures, and there is no obfuscation. > > I wouldn't claim to generalize about what all religions say. But at > the very least, it is obvious that the Bahai understanding of Seal of > the Prophets is in disagreement with the Muslim understanding. > > And from myside, part of why the Bahai view might seem confusing is > that Bahais don't all talk about it in the same way. In this very > thread there are examples of Bahais arguing that 1) Seal simply does > not mean last. 2) Seal does mean last and so Muhammad (saaws) was the > last MAnifestionation in the Cycle of Prophethood but then they would > say that the Bab was the first Manifestation in the cycle of > fulfillment. 3) While other Bahais use prophet/messenger and > manifestation almost interchangeably. especially in the light of 4) > How the Writings suggest that all the MAnifestations partake in the > station of Seal of the Prophets. > > > > > For me as a Baha'i, the idea that at some point in time (e.g., in 632) > God decided to go into permanent retirement and leave humanity to its own > devices forever, with-holding His grace and bounty forever, is unacceptable > and far from His loving kindness, justice, and mercy. > > > > > And as I'm sure we've discussed before, even Muslims who insist that > no more prophets and messengers are coming are still perfectly willing > to accept the continuing appearance of imams, mujaddids, mujtahids, > qutbs, awliya and even manifestations (insan al-kamil) who continue to > receive and share guidance from Allah even in the form of kashf and > ilham. And the point about insan-al-kamil is actually important > because I know Sunni Muslims who say that such people are alive today > (perfectly polished souls who reflect the Attributes of Allah). In > other words Muslims who are open to the idea that such manifestations > are alive in the world today but the Bahais due to literal > interpretations and "clouds" in the writings would treat such a person > like a "lying impostor". > > All I really mean to say is that you are overstating the Muslim > position on this point. > > In any case, I have been thinking of resending my request to leave the > list. I certainly don't feel welcome. I think we've said what has been > on our minds. I don't see your views or my views growing or changing > much. So I should focus my time on other pursuits. > > __________________________________________________ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar....@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: > leave-511576-20805...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511755-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
