The Baha'i Studies Listserv Raiding a trading caravan is an offensive war.
What `Abdu'i-Baha is saying applies to Muhammad's defensive wars. But there were offensive wars as well. You don't understand the issue of collective security and just war. Jihad is religious warfare. A different animal. All the conquests of Islam until 732 were offenses by nature. They were conducted to foist Islam by force and compulsion on other peoples and nations. You think Egyptians and Syrians and Persians came to Arabia begging to become Muslims? The no compulsion in religion verse does not and did not abrogate jihad. Violence in the name of religion has always been a part of Islam, sometimes more and sometimes less. That kind of religion cannot be and is not God's final religion. Iskandar Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®, typed with fat fingers on a small device. -----Original Message----- From: Gilberto Simpson <gilberto.simp...@gmail.com> Sender: <bounce-549209-2080...@list.jccc.edu>Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 20:01:41 To: Baha'i Studies<bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" <bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> Subject: Re: Stealth Jihad The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 7:27 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <iskandar....@gmail.com> wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > Just warfare is in the context of collective security, in order to stop an > aggressor. So is jihad when properly understood. That's actually the point of SAQ: Muḥammad received the Divine Revelation among these tribes, and after enduring thirteen years of persecution from them, He fled. 2 But this people did not cease to oppress; they united to exterminate Him and all His followers. It was under such circumstances that Muḥammad was forced to take up arms. This is the truth: we are not bigoted and do not wish to defend Him, but we are just, and we say what is just. Look at it with justice. If Christ Himself had been placed in such circumstances among such tyrannical and barbarous tribes, and if for thirteen years He with His disciples had endured all these trials with patience, culminating in flight from His native land—if in spite of this these lawless tribes continued to pursue Him, to slaughter the men, to pillage their property, and to capture their women and children—what would have been Christ’s conduct with regard to them? If this oppression had fallen only upon Himself, He would have forgiven them, and such an act of forgiveness would have been most praiseworthy; but if He had seen that these cruel and bloodthirsty murderers wished to kill, to pillage and to injure all these oppressed ones, and to take captive the women and children, it is certain that He would have protected them and would have resisted the tyrants. What objection, then, can be taken to Muḥammad’s action? Is it this, that He did not, with His followers, and their women and children, submit to these savage tribes? To free these tribes from their bloodthirstiness was the greatest kindness, and to coerce and restrain them was 21 a true mercy. They were like a man holding in his hand a cup of poison, which, when about to drink, a friend breaks and thus saves him. If Christ had been placed in similar circumstances, it is certain that with a conquering power He would have delivered the men, women and children from the claws of these bloodthirsty wolves. > Very different from religious warfare (jihad) or holy war. Jihad is quite > ugly and unholy, and its use is to force people into accepting > your religion. Categorically abolished, forbidden, and abrogated in the > Baha'i Faith. > If that's how you are defining jihad then the Quran already says there is no compulsion in matters of religion. > There is a big difference between raiding a trading caravan to provoke a war > and just war theory. > > What `Abdu'l-Baha endorses is the defensive wars in early Islam. But there > were offensive raids, etc. too. > > I'm just interested in discussing the forms of warfare / jihad which would have permissible under Muhammad (saaws) or the Imams. Are you saying that Muhammad and/or the Imams led offensive raids? __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar....@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549209-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549212-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
