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Dear Mitchell, You can respond or not. Maybe you respond only to people who agree with you--that is your business and way. But I asked what percent of the Madison population claims to have been riding a bike in the past year? That is a valid question to determine an elite activity? One or two thousand out of the population of Madison, the most or nearly the most Bike Friendly city in the USA is not great considering 100% of Madison's population have been using automobiles in one way or another. So, it will be a lot easier if you and anybody else who disagrees with me wishes not to post if that is your way. It seems that my original contention was that Nussbaum turned a discussion into a political promotion for more bike infrastructure and spending scarce resources which should be shared? It was not an argument about the definition over the meaning of elite. EW Mitchell Nussbaum wrote: First of all, let me apologize to the list for responding to the last post. I know I shouldn't have done it, but I couldn't resist the temptation. I'll try to restrain myself next time...honest!It's impossible to have a rational discussion with Eric, because, like Thuy, his preconceptions are more real and true to him, than anything he could learn by actually observing the world. Anyone who is willing to open his or her eyes in Madison would know that it's not an elite activity here. Almost everybody in Madison owns a bike, and we come in all ages, body shapes, and levels of fitness. Last week a fantastic array of thousands of people came out for Ride the Drive. I guess they were all elitists. Today, I took a short ride along the lake path, and had to slow down for all the elite families on the path, with their elite kids on the elite bikes they bought from elite big box stores. In right-wing culture-war discourse, an "elitist" is anyone who disagrees with you, and has slightly different consumer preferences, even if he or she has no political power and not much money. Using Grey Poupon mustard makes you an elitist, even though it can be found on the shelves of every supermarket in America. Bike riding is elitist, too, even if you ride a bike you put together at Freewheel, and even if you can't afford a car. Anyway, as we all know, everybody in Madison is an elitist, including the homeless people. Except the Republicans, of course. I apologize again for taking up bandwidth for this futile discussion, and I won't do it again. If I don't respond to Eric's next response, it won't be because I don't have an answer. Eric Westhagen wrote:Dear Mitchell, I am not familiar with Thuy Pham-Remmele. But a simple answer to your hypothetical would be a survey of bicycle riders in the "already friendliest bicycle city in America--Madison." That would result in a percentage of the population riding--even most modestly like you describe. As for people able to control their riding--tell that to the Ripon Surgeon MD who died on a road near Ripon after his assistant said he had been complaining all week of "chest pains."-----And he was a doctor. So, as for people keeping their biking in relation to their fitness----? I don't advocate putting barriers in the way to riding, I am questioning the numbers of riders;--most totally unfit know their situation and don't even wish to "coast along to work"--as you suggest, Mitchell. Bike riders are an elite. EW Mitchell Nussbaum wrote: What does "truly fit to ride bicycles" mean? If you're racing to the top of L'Alpe d'Huez, you need a finely-tuned aerobically-efficient body, as well as an expensive bike. If you're biking to work or class or the grocery store, the standards are much lower. I would suggest that the vast majority of Americans are sufficiently fit to use their bikes for daily transportation, if they choose to do so. And if they do ride their bikes at a reasonable speed, with a reasonable level of effort, they're less likely to need those ambulances than if they drive everywhere. The infrastructure that bike advocates seek is not for the "bicycling elite" -- they can generally take care of themselves on ordinary streets and roads -- but for the ordinary bikers, who are unwilling to go head-to-head with motor traffic. It's unfortunate that Eric, who does apparently ride a bike pretty regularly, is spouting the same line as Thuy Pham-Remmele, who seems to have an unconditional hatred of bicycling in all its forms, but I've come to expect that sort of thing. Eric Westhagen wrote: Dear Matt, What percentage of Americans are truly fit to ride bicycles regularly?  Won't that be likely to drop even lower as the average American weight rises even more.  And above the weight, who are fit cardiovascularly to get off on a road with a few hills and miles from home?  It is one thing to exercise where one can stop if over stressed.  Sure many on this list are probably on bikes and say they are neither pictures of fitness or have the teenage weight they once had.  But you had better increase the ambulance squads if going out biking is pressed on the general public.  Matt, you are simply pressing for more infrastructure for the bicycle elite once again.  But you are correct probably in assuming that motorists might associate with motorists and, in fact might be jealous of fit bicyclists whizzing along and wish they could be of that small group. EW Matt Logan wrote: As someone who moved to Madison and more or less stuck to the rules (except for a couple years of critical mass), the largest benefit will be to the safety of bicyclists. Beyond that, I am highly skeptical. I have come to realize that the public perception of bicyclists is largely driven by the simple fact that drivers will excuse the behavior of other drivers, but will criticize identical behavior from bicyclists. The real solution to the perception problem is not better bicyclists, but better bicycling infrastructure that attracts more drivers onto bicycles more frequently. When more drivers are bicyclists too, they tend to see things from a different perspective. _______________________________________________ Bikies mailing list [email protected] http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org _______________________________________________ Bikies mailing list [email protected] http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org _______________________________________________ Bikies mailing list [email protected] http://lists.danenet.org/listinfo.cgi/bikies-danenet.org |
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