On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 3:56 AM Anupam Snigdha <sni...@microsoft.com> wrote:

> Let me try to clarify few things. Currently there is *no *user activation
> requirements in async clipboard read/write in Chromium browsers. e.g.
> https://clumsy-garnet-meeting.glitch.me/. Just load this page and refresh
> it without clicking anywhere on the page, you will see the content will get
> written to the clipboard without any gesture.
>

Writing to the clipboard is quite distinct from reading from the clipboard,
isn't it? https://gifted-stingy-ketchup.glitch.me/ actually surfaces a
permission prompt when executing `navigator.clipboard.read()`, which is
more in line with my expectations.


> Safari, due to security concerns, implemented a gesture requirement to
> access clipboard via async clipboard APIs. The read()/write() method can
> only be called inside a trusted user gesture event handler, but the
> promises to Blobs can be resolved later which gives the web authors the
> flexibility to not block the thread to populate the payload.
>

The question in my mind relates to the content of that promise's
resolution. Is the resulting blob created at the point at which the
`read()` method is called (as a "copy of the system clipboard data")? Or is
the resolution "active" in some sense, returning a blob representing
whatever happens to be in the clipboard at the time the promise is resolved?


> In Pickling API
> <https://github.com/w3c/editing/blob/gh-pages/docs/clipboard-pickling/explainer.md>,
> which adds capability to the async clipboard API to read/write unsanitized
> content, initially we added a transient user activation requirement because
> the API lets web authors read/write unsanitized content using a custom
> clipboard format. Both Chrome security team(see "User Gesture Requirement"
> section in https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/315) and TAG(
> https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/636#issuecomment-857829725)
> raised the concern that transient user activation is NOT sufficient to give
> clipboard access to web authors.
>

That sounds right to me, and points again to the question above: does a
click give you access to the clipboard _now_, or at some arbitrary point in
the future?

This change is required to not only support the Pickling API's user gesture
> event handling requirements, but also improve the security by adding an
> even stronger signal of the user intent to copy. We also talked about this
> in the Editing WG call with Apple and they are opposed to transient user
> activation and I believe Firefox raised concerns as well(
> https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues/52#issuecomment-599443986).
>
> Re: clipboard spec: I believe the spec needs to be updated so I've started
> this PR: https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/pull/158.
>
> Please let me know if you have any other quesions/concerns.
>
> -Anupam
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Mike West <mk...@chromium.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 28, 2021 12:17 PM
> *To:* Anupam Snigdha <sni...@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* bratel...@gmail.com <bratel...@gmail.com>; dome...@chromium.org <
> dome...@chromium.org>; yoavwe...@chromium.org <yoavwe...@chromium.org>;
> blink-dev@chromium.org <blink-dev@chromium.org>; ann...@annevk.nl <
> ann...@annevk.nl>; m...@chromium.org <m...@chromium.org>; Bo Cupp <
> pc...@microsoft.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to Implement and Ship:
> Add support for Promise to Blobs in clipboard item
>
> We discussed this in the API owners' meeting, and there's some confusion
> both about what's specified, and what Chromium's implementation does. I
> read https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues/161
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fclipboard-apis%2Fissues%2F161&data=04%7C01%7Csnianu%40microsoft.com%7C0a495f1387824571e3e408d99a47afbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637710455072866700%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=hqbLhbCrhnx0mMTXsmy2aCei9RLpIbI8KI0GhMN5ieM%3D&reserved=0>
> as suggesting that the `ClipboardItem` has a promise which, when resolved,
> provides access to the current contents of the clipboard (and a response
> suggests that there's a 1 second limit on that). Step 2.3 of
> https://www.w3.org/TR/clipboard-apis/#dom-clipboard-read
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fclipboard-apis%2F%23dom-clipboard-read&data=04%7C01%7Csnianu%40microsoft.com%7C0a495f1387824571e3e408d99a47afbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637710455072876690%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=NWaqKZBi58NVVKpJGOu9PfLPE32VAmBg%2BMtnqy8mRVY%3D&reserved=0>
> suggests that read operations return "a copy of the system clipboard data",
> which seems inconsistent.
>
> Can y'all help me understand what our model is here? And what the model
> ought to be, if it diverges from what we've currently implemented?
>
> -mike
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 8:07 PM 'Anupam Snigdha' via blink-dev <
> blink-dev@chromium.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks Daniel for raising this concern. I have opened an issue to discuss
> with the Editing WG: https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/issues/161
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fclipboard-apis%2Fissues%2F161&data=04%7C01%7Csnianu%40microsoft.com%7C0a495f1387824571e3e408d99a47afbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637710455072886694%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=XhNKvRseB3%2F5rebvOGwZYBgHGCaG2oysNsz28%2BlOQeg%3D&reserved=0>.
> In the current implementation, I think verifying whether the Document is
> active or not after the promises have been resolved should mitigate some of
> the concerns.
>
>
>
> *From:* Daniel Bratell <bratel...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 21, 2021 12:48 PM
> *To:* Domenic Denicola <dome...@chromium.org>; Yoav Weiss <
> yoavwe...@chromium.org>
> *Cc:* blink-dev <blink-dev@chromium.org>; Anupam Snigdha <
> sni...@microsoft.com>; ann...@annevk.nl <ann...@annevk.nl>; Marijn
> Kruisselbrink <m...@chromium.org>; Bo Cupp <pc...@microsoft.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to Implement and Ship:
> Add support for Promise to Blobs in clipboard item
>
>
>
> Inspired by the recent talk about user interaction, I feel like there is
> one thing I want to understand.
>
> So with a Promise you move the execution to a later time. Is it possible
> here for a malicious page to delay an action to much, much later and then
> do that clipboard operation on data that was not available at the time of
> the clipboard operation the user initiated?
>
> If so, could that have security implications?
>
> Could there even be more than one ongoing clipboard operation at a time?
>
> /Daniel
>
>
>
> On 2021-10-21 17:20, Domenic Denicola wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 5:21 AM Yoav Weiss <yoavwe...@chromium.org> wrote:
>
> LGTM1 to ship conditional that y'all continue to work on PR #158
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fclipboard-apis%2Fpull%2F158&data=04%7C01%7Csnianu%40microsoft.com%7C0a495f1387824571e3e408d99a47afbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637710455072896682%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=5uP05FPMvfAuCp1SUI%2FLg%2B4TXQ1W7gTJNEmyqsCgV0E%3D&reserved=0>
>  specifically,
> and clarifying the spec's processing model in general.
>
> On Thursday, October 21, 2021 at 2:04:53 AM UTC+2 snianu wrote:
>
> Gentle ping as the branch cutoff date for 97 is pretty close. While I
> agree that the issues related to clipboard API spec need to be addressed, I
> don’t think this feature needs to be blocked on that. It’s not a breaking
> change i.e. sites can continue to use Blobs if they want to(although I
> don’t think any developer would want to have different codepaths for Apple
> and Chromium browsers)
>
>
>
> FWIW, I got curious RE why that *should* work, and did some digging.
>
> It seems like the bindings methods that accept a `Promise<T>` input value
> call `NativeValueTraits<IDLPromise>
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsource.chromium.org%2Fchromium%2Fchromium%2Fsrc%2F%2B%2Fmain%3Athird_party%2Fblink%2Frenderer%2Fbindings%2Fcore%2Fv8%2Fnative_value_traits_impl.h%3Bl%3D775%3Fq%3DArgumentValue%26ss%3Dchromium%252Fchromium%252Fsrc&data=04%7C01%7Csnianu%40microsoft.com%7C0a495f1387824571e3e408d99a47afbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637710455072896682%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=FTudEC79sUrcFDkGRhYnFuPS855YOzlYk9f2qOUnTh4%3D&reserved=0>`
> on that value, which casts
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsource.chromium.org%2Fchromium%2Fchromium%2Fsrc%2F%2B%2Fmain%3Athird_party%2Fblink%2Frenderer%2Fbindings%2Fcore%2Fv8%2Fscript_promise.cc%3Bdrc%3Dac35167cc1cf9c40778c1e1d8855fd90a90f0fbf%3Bl%3D291&data=04%7C01%7Csnianu%40microsoft.com%7C0a495f1387824571e3e408d99a47afbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637710455072906686%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=2KRkVVGfb0KWzcxHsgjjpGBhTUJbcg%2FQppN9q%2BJDrIU%3D&reserved=0>
> the value foo into a `Promise.resolve(foo)`, if it wasn't a Promise already.
>
> The same seems to work in WebKit as well. Do you know if this bindings
> behavior is specified?
>
>
>
> It is: https://webidl.spec.whatwg.org/#es-promise
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebidl.spec.whatwg.org%2F%23es-promise&data=04%7C01%7Csnianu%40microsoft.com%7C0a495f1387824571e3e408d99a47afbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637710455072916670%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=FASK8Hh4nPqwoCN5CMgYP%2Febf1ZZKmJmHxE2uYdAcm8%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
> Also, can you add tests for both input cases as part of your CLs for this?
>
>
>
> , and Apple has already shipped this feature. Please let me know in case
> of any concerns.
>
>
>
> -Anupam
>
>
>
> *From:* Anupam Snigdha
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 7, 2021 9:53 AM
> *To:* 'Yoav Weiss' <yoavwe...@chromium.org>
> *Cc:* ann...@annevk.nl; blink-dev@chromium.org; m...@chromium.org; Bo Cupp
> <pc...@microsoft.com>
> *Subject:* RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to Implement and Ship:
> Add support for Promise to Blobs in clipboard item
>
>
>
> Yep, I’ll address the feedback from Anne and mbrodesser (from Mozilla).
>
> Thanks for all your help Anne and Yoav!
>
>
>
> *From:* Yoav Weiss <yoavwe...@chromium.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 7, 2021 12:03 AM
> *To:* Anupam Snigdha <sni...@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* ann...@annevk.nl; blink-dev@chromium.org; m...@chromium.org; Bo Cupp
> <pc...@microsoft.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to Implement and Ship:
> Add support for Promise to Blobs in clipboard item
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 4:02 AM Anupam Snigdha <sni...@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> Here is a WIP PR to address the spec issue:
> https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/pull/158
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fclipboard-apis%2Fpull%2F158&data=04%7C01%7Csnianu%40microsoft.com%7C0a495f1387824571e3e408d99a47afbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637710455072926665%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=D%2BWGf9HzbkLaU0ZaptNV43LPG68cVNx01nrcjX%2FlcQk%3D&reserved=0>
> .
>
>
>
> Can you address feedback from Anne on the PR?
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Anupam Snigdha
> *Sent:* Monday, October 4, 2021 10:45 AM
> *To:* 'Yoav Weiss' <yoavwe...@chromium.org>; Anne van Kesteren <
> ann...@annevk.nl>
> *Cc:* blink-dev <blink-dev@chromium.org>; Marijn Kruisselbrink <
> m...@chromium.org>; Bo Cupp <pc...@microsoft.com>
> *Subject:* RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to Implement and Ship:
> Add support for Promise to Blobs in clipboard item
>
>
>
> For #1: I don’t think we would want to diverge from the spec. There is a
> reason why we have promises to Blobs and not just Blobs in the
> ClipboardItem because, well, not having promises defeats the purpose of
> having an async API. Also waiting for the Blob data synchronously without
> triggering the clipboard write operation leads to problems like this
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbugs.chromium.org%2Fp%2Fchromium%2Fissues%2Fdetail%3Fid%3D1014310%23c15&data=04%7C01%7Csnianu%40microsoft.com%7C0a495f1387824571e3e408d99a47afbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637710455072936659%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=uMeeRXk4ziGdXUj0q8dOiCvHYqmfYv0%2FYawgvyKTPWU%3D&reserved=0>
> and performance issues in sites like Excel Online where the copy payload is
> in MBs.
>
>
>
> That makes sense.
>
>
>
>
>
> For #2: This might sound more of a rant so apologies in advance.
>
>
>
> I agree with Anne that the spec is not really clear at all on the
> specifics of the async clipboard API and some of the terminologies used in
> the algorithms.
>
> However, making changes to the spec or even clarifying the language after
> an API has been shipped, is really hard, as we need to get consensus from
> all browser vendors.
>
> I tried to clarify what “sanitization” means just for the HTML format
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fclipboard-apis%2Fissues%2F150%23issuecomment-909405090&data=04%7C01%7Csnianu%40microsoft.com%7C0a495f1387824571e3e408d99a47afbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637710455072936659%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=wM8RZVhTzE%2F0Yqygd0dPn9XemClTVUiICIdP0KLO1wU%3D&reserved=0>
> and Apple opposed to this change
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fclipboard-apis%2Fissues%2F150%23issuecomment-922211803&data=04%7C01%7Csnianu%40microsoft.com%7C0a495f1387824571e3e408d99a47afbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637710455072946657%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=YvHUMsv%2FB8TmFQ8t0dcx4EtGCtOJxgcFt%2FaYpN4ZZWc%3D&reserved=0>.
>
>
>
>
> That's unfortunate :/
>
>
>
> Perhaps I can add a non-normative note which would at least give some
> clarity on the sanitization process, but that would probably require UA
> specific non normative notes which defeats the purpose of standardization.
>
> I also tried to make changes to address Mozilla’s concern about mandatory
> data types supported by async clipboard APIs:
> https://github.com/w3c/clipboard-apis/pull/155
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fclipboard-apis%2Fpull%2F155&data=04%7C01%7Csnianu%40microsoft.com%7C0a495f1387824571e3e408d99a47afbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637710455072956651%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=JleHJji%2BQTN1agkrOqnZwgpchu%2FCniNWgXlq9cyzP5I%3D&reserved=0>,
> but this PR has been sitting for almost a month now and I’m not able to
> make any progress.
>
>
>
> FWIW, it seemed to have made some progress initially and then stalled.
> Pinging it may make sense.
>
>
>
>
>
> In order to make progress on spec changes, we decided to have a discussion
> with the Editing WG members and submit changes to the spec if no one
> objects to it. Currently the Editing WG has representatives from Apple and
> MS who regularly attend the monthly status meetings. So my question is, if
> we get an approval from the WG, then does that meet the minimum bar to make
> spec changes?
>
>
>
> That's for the Editing WG to decide. Looking at its charter
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2021%2F06%2Fweb-editing-wg-charter.html&data=04%7C01%7Csnianu%40microsoft.com%7C0a495f1387824571e3e408d99a47afbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637710455072966643%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=bTEVl5L%2Bjo50sgWy7yHl40%2FY8JGFOv5ATAik4iM0sJQ%3D&reserved=0>,
> it seems the chairs may be able to help move things along (e.g. by bringing
> decisions to a vote, if no consensus is reached).
>
>
>
>
>
> Anyways, I’m working on updating the spec to at least define the Clipboard
> interface IDL, but since Apple and Chromium browsers have already shipped
> this API, I don’t think it’s possible to make any significant changes to
> the  APIs without breaking at least one of the browsers.
>
> This change addresses the discrepancy between the ClipboardItem IDL as
> defined in the spec(also implemented by Apple) and what is implemented in
> Chromium. This is not a breaking change so I think the risk is minimal here.
>
>
>
> *From:* Yoav Weiss <yoavwe...@chromium.org>
> *Sent:* Friday, October 1, 2021 4:15 AM
> *To:* Anne van Kesteren <ann...@annevk.nl>
> *Cc:* Anupam Snigdha <sni...@microsoft.com>; blink-dev <
> blink-dev@chromium.org>; Marijn Kruisselbrink <m...@chromium.org>; Bo Cupp
> <pc...@microsoft.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to Implement and Ship:
> Add support for Promise to Blobs in clipboard item
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 12:46 PM Anne van Kesteren <ann...@annevk.nl>
> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 12:35 PM Yoav Weiss <yoavwe...@chromium.org> wrote:
> > Thanks Anne and Thomas for the cross-browser context.
> >
> > Anupam - looking at the issue Anne posted, it seems Firefox explicitly
> did not implement this.
> > I think it'd be interesting to get their opinions as to why, and whether
> we should align with the current WebKit behavior or the current Chromium
> one.
> >
> > Anne - do y'all want to chime in here, or would a standards position
> issue be the best venue?
>
> There is an existing issue:
> https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/89
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmozilla%2Fstandards-positions%2Fissues%2F89&data=04%7C01%7Csnianu%40microsoft.com%7C0a495f1387824571e3e408d99a47afbc%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637710455072966643%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=MkOrbwlo6eC%2BI%2Fo9v9QOZK4dScnsWBAGWP30BXG10qA%3D&reserved=0>.
> The problem
> we are having in evaluating all this is that there isn't really any
> specification to speak of, as I tried to point out. One can take
> guesses as to what the expected behavior is likely to be, but that is
> very far from ideal and normally not even close to acceptable, right?
>
>
>
> That's fair.
>
>
>
> From my perspective, the ideal outcome here would be:
>
> 1) Getting agreement on this specific issue that's currently causing
> developer pain, and moving forward in that direction.
>
> 2) Properly specifying the correct behavior for the rest of the broader
> API, in ways that would enable interoperable implementations (and reduce
> developer pain in the future).
>
>
>
> It seems like (2) requires Someone™ to take on the work of gathering the
> different unspecified behaviors, opening an issue to discuss each one,
> reaching agreement on them and pushing to align existing implementations.
>
>
>
> Maybe we can decouple (1) and (2), but I'd like to see we have a concrete
> plan for (2) before we do that.
>
>
>
> Anupam - who would be best positioned to take on that work?
>
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