Mason, can you confirm that what is shipping is accurately represented by
the specification field, i.e., CSS anchor positioning only? In particular,
the HTML anchor="" attribute <https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/9144> is
not included in this I2S?

On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 5:01 AM Daniel Herr <danielstephenh...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> If there is some debate as to whether the design is finished and the
> possibility of breaking changes, but also a desire to let developers try it
> out in production, why not use an origin trial instead of straight to
> shipping?
> On Tuesday, April 16, 2024 at 3:05:56 PM UTC-4 Rick Byers wrote:
>
>> LGTM3
>>
>> There's definitely some forward compat risk here, but we know adoption
>> for these sorts of features tends to be slow before reaching all engines,
>> so I'm confident in our ability to make small breaking changes as needed as
>> the spec continues to mature. Seeing how much diligence and review has gone
>> into this after 4 years of work, lacking significant known open issues, and
>> the benefits for web developers, I think it's consistent with the Chromium
>> project value of carefully but urgently pushing the web forward to be
>> shipping this now, despite the discomfort in not yet being perfect.
>>
>> Thank you Fantasai for the feedback and the additional context on the
>> webkit standards position. Note that we were explicitly asked (by Maciej I
>> think?) to wait
>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xkHRXnFS8GDqZi7E0SSbR3a7CZsGScdxPUWBsNgo-oo/edit>
>> for the standards position to be officially set before claiming something
>> other than "no signals" to ensure we're accurately reflecting the position
>> of the WebKit project overall (rather than just the support of some select
>> engineers). But adding additional context to "no signals" is definitely
>> worth doing, thank you for correcting that!
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 16, 2024 at 11:34 AM Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> LGTM2. And thanks to fantasai for giving a more nuanced read on the lack
>>> of an official, published WebKit position. I appreciate the rest of the
>>> concerns raised, and agree with Mason that getting the feature in front of
>>> developers will be a net positive now, vs delaying until some future
>>> post-review time.
>>> On 4/16/24 1:58 PM, Alex Russell wrote:
>>>
>> LGTM1. Excited to see this ship!
>>>
>>> On Monday, April 15, 2024 at 5:57:40 PM UTC-7 Mason Freed wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks for the detailed reply, fantasai! And also thank you very much
>>>> for all of the hard work you and Tab have put into this feature to make it
>>>> what it is. We very much appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> More inline:
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 14, 2024 at 10:56 PM fantasai <fantasa...@inkedblade.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Speaking for myself only (not as Apple/WebKit), as an individual
>>>>> co-editor of this spec--and from the perspective of having edited many
>>>>> layout specs including Grid and Flexbox--I think Anchor Positioning is not
>>>>> quite ready to ship (though I think it's pretty close).
>>>>>
>>>>> The spec just went through a significant overhaul, with major changes
>>>>> to syntax, behavior, and interactions among various features. Typically
>>>>> after such changes, a spec needs some time to settle, and also another
>>>>> round of review to flush out additional issues and refine the new design.
>>>>> This is particularly true for layout specs due to their complexity--both
>>>>> the inherent complexity of the feature (we want to ensure it's fully
>>>>> coherent, even after all the changes), as well as the complexity of how it
>>>>> gets used (we want to ensure good usability for the various use cases).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It sounds from your overall comment here that you think the feature is
>>>> quite close to “ready” - I’m glad! We agree with that general point. You
>>>> say you don’t think it’s “quite ready to ship” here and I appreciate that.
>>>> One thing to note is that we’re very committed to addressing any open
>>>> issues, either now or after additional issues are discovered. We further
>>>> strongly believe that shipping the API allows **all** developers to start
>>>> kicking the tires of the feature to find open issues. It’s possible that
>>>> issues would be discovered by the CSSWG community via a spec-text-only
>>>> review, but that’s much more likely to happen when many developers are
>>>> actively trying to make it work for their application using a real
>>>> implementation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> AFAICT, we haven't actively solicited these reviews yet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I do believe we’ve been pretty actively soliciting feedback for the
>>>> past two years as the feature was developed, and we’ve received some great
>>>> feedback that helped shape the feature, particularly from Apple. Having
>>>> said that, we plan to participate in the steps to get to CR over time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I do think Anchor Positioning is in good shape right now in the sense
>>>>> that I think most major concerns with the earlier design are resolved. I
>>>>> don't anticipate further major changes to the design and implementation.
>>>>> But I do think it's reasonably likely that we'll want to make minor
>>>>> breaking changes to syntax and behavior during this settling period, and I
>>>>> don't want us to be constrained by a shipping Chrome implementation.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Again, I’m glad you don’t anticipate major changes. And we fully expect
>>>> to see minor breaking changes as the feature gets wider evaluation by
>>>> developers. It would be natural to assume some reasonable such changes over
>>>> the coming months, and Chrome will be open to such changes if they are
>>>> compelling, even if they’re breaking.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> (For additional context, my response here is prompted by a non-Apple,
>>>>> non-WebKit CSSWG member messaging me over the weekend and asking "isn't
>>>>> this a bit premature?" So it's not just me/Apple that has some lingering
>>>>> concerns. :)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a very large feature, so there is bound to be some discomfort
>>>> about shipping it, no matter when that shipment happens. I do understand!
>>>> But we’ve also received a significant number of developers commenting that
>>>> they were very excited to see this feature finally shipping after all these
>>>> years.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In terms of scheduling, I think targetting the summer is better: Tab
>>>>> is giving a talk on Anchor Positioning at CSS Day, which I think is a 
>>>>> great
>>>>> opportunity to present the full proposal and Chrome's implementation in 
>>>>> its
>>>>> latest form and solicit feedback from advanced CSS authors, and there's a
>>>>> CSSWG F2F the following week during which we should be able to resolve any
>>>>> issues remaining or raised during wide review.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think you’re right that these venues will provide great opportunities
>>>> to discuss the feature and talk about improvements. Indeed, there is a long
>>>> list of css-anchor-position-2 issues
>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Acss-anchor-position-2>
>>>> that will provide discussion topics for many meetings to come, I’m sure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On the topic of accessibility in particular, it is not addressed at
>>>>> all in the draft. Whether there needs to be some special affordance in
>>>>> implementations or not, we need to address accessibility requirements and
>>>>> best practices and document them clearly, as we did with Grid and Flexbox.
>>>>> The point at which this feature ships in Chrome is the point at which
>>>>> knowledge of this feature and how to use it will start to spread widely 
>>>>> and
>>>>> rapidly. We need to have a solid accessibility story prepared, documented,
>>>>> and evangelized together with the basic how-tos and other DevRel around
>>>>> this CSS feature at the same time as it's released. And I suspect the 
>>>>> story
>>>>> here is going to be more complex than Grid and Flexbox.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Are there particular issues you’re aware of? The only one I’m aware of
>>>> is csswg-drafts/issues/9356
>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9356> which talks about
>>>> display and keyboard ordering. Incidentally, that’s an issue that applies
>>>> to Grid and Flexbox already, and we’re actively working on a prototype
>>>> implementation and spec proposal for `reading-order-items`. But as
>>>> evidenced by that, even Grid/Flexbox aren’t fully “done” yet. Are there
>>>> other a11y issues related to anchor pos? We’re not aware of any, but please
>>>> do raise the ones you see.
>>>>
>>>> Your point about having the a11y story documented is a good one. We
>>>> will make sure to include that story in blog posts, etc. If you have
>>>> particular points to include, please do share.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again for the detailed comments!
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Mason
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/12/24 08:03, Mason Freed wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> Contact emails
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * mas...@chromium.org * Explainer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>>> https://github.com/MicrosoftEdge/MSEdgeExplainers/blob/main/CSSAnchoredPositioning/explainer.md
>>>>> <https://github.com/MicrosoftEdge/MSEdgeExplainers/blob/main/CSSAnchoredPositioning/explainer.md>
>>>>> https://xiaochengh.github.io/Explainers/css-anchor-position/explainer.html
>>>>> <https://xiaochengh.github.io/Explainers/css-anchor-position/explainer.html>
>>>>> https://developer.chrome.com/blog/tether-elements-to-each-other-with-css-anchor-positioning
>>>>> <https://developer.chrome.com/blog/tether-elements-to-each-other-with-css-anchor-positioning>
>>>>> https://12daysofweb.dev/2023/anchor-positioning
>>>>> <https://12daysofweb.dev/2023/anchor-positioning> {Note: the explainers
>>>>> above are in chronological order. This feature has been in public
>>>>> discussion since 2021, so there is significant history. As such, the
>>>>> explainers above explain the user problem anchor positioning intends to
>>>>> solve and why it solves them, but in some cases reference an out-of-date
>>>>> API shape. In parallel with this I2S we are working on an updated blog 
>>>>> post
>>>>> that uses the latest spec draft syntax.} * Specification
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * https://drafts.csswg.org/css-anchor-position-1
>>>>> <https://drafts.csswg.org/css-anchor-position-1/> * Summary
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * CSS anchor positioning allows authors to "tether" an absolutely
>>>>> positioned element to one or more other elements on the page (the
>>>>> "anchors"), in a declarative way, without the use of Javascript. Anchor
>>>>> positioning works performantly when the anchors are scrollable. A common
>>>>> use case is to position a popover such as a tooltip next to the element
>>>>> that invoked it, or a select menu and its popover options list. Before the
>>>>> anchor positioning feature, these use cases required Javascript to
>>>>> dynamically position the popover, and keep it anchored as the invoking
>>>>> element was scrolled, which is a performance footgun and difficult to get
>>>>> right. With anchor positioning, these use cases can be implemented
>>>>> performantly and declaratively. The anchor positioning feature consists of
>>>>> a large number of CSS properties, which are fully described in the spec
>>>>> (https://drafts.csswg.org/css-anchor-position-1
>>>>> <https://drafts.csswg.org/css-anchor-position-1/>). The key
>>>>> features/properties include: - `anchor-name`: sets up an element to be an
>>>>> anchor for other elements. - `position-anchor`: describes the "default"
>>>>> anchor that an anchored element should use for anchor positioning. - The
>>>>> `anchor()` function: used to refer to the position of the anchor element,
>>>>> in positioning the anchored element. E.g. `top: anchor(bottom)`. In
>>>>> addition to implicitly using the `position-anchor` as the anchor, explicit
>>>>> anchor references can also be used, e.g. `top: anchor(--button bottom)`. -
>>>>> The `anchor-size()` function: used to size the anchored element relative 
>>>>> to
>>>>> the anchor. For example, `width: anchor-size(width)` would make the
>>>>> anchored element have the same width as the anchor element. - 
>>>>> `inset-area`:
>>>>> a shorthand for positioning, for common relative positions. E.g.
>>>>> `inset-area: top left`. Many inset-area values are available, making 
>>>>> common
>>>>> use cases easy to implement. - The “position-try” properties and @ rules:
>>>>> enables “fallback positioning”, which allows multiple potential position
>>>>> options to be considered, with the “best” option automatically selected.
>>>>> The related properties/rules are: - `position-try` (and associated
>>>>> longhands): a list of options for positioning the anchored element. The
>>>>> “best” of these options will be selected based on the position of the
>>>>> anchor, the layout of the anchored element, and the available space. -
>>>>> `@position-try`: one set of positioning properties to be considered as an
>>>>> option within a `position-try` list. E.g. `@position-try --left-side
>>>>> {right: anchor(left)}`. - `position-try-order`: select the position option
>>>>> based on available space, e.g. the one with the `most-block-size`. - the
>>>>> “try-tactics”: shorthand values for `position-try` that automatically
>>>>> generate common positioning options, such as `flip-block` to automatically
>>>>> flip to the other side of the anchor in the block direction. - The
>>>>> `anchor-center` value, for the self-alignment properties
>>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/css-align-3/#self-alignment-properties>. This value
>>>>> allows easy centering of an anchored element relative to the anchor
>>>>> element. - The `position-visibility` property: specifies that the anchored
>>>>> element should be hidden in some circumstances, based on the
>>>>> visibility/availability of the anchor element. For example,
>>>>> `position-visibility: anchors-visible` will hide the anchored element when
>>>>> the anchor is no longer visible. All of the above features are implemented
>>>>> and fully-tested
>>>>> <https://wpt.fyi/results/css/css-anchor-position?label=experimental&label=master&aligned>.
>>>>> Some corner cases are not supported for now: - The `anchors-valid` value
>>>>> for the `position-visibility` property is not yet supported. This value 
>>>>> has
>>>>> some open spec questions (csswg-drafts/issues/10201
>>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10201>) that we feel need more
>>>>> crisp discussion and definition. The remaining values are supported, and
>>>>> the missing value is feature-detectable via `@supports`. We are tracking
>>>>> this in crbug.com/333421963 <http://crbug.com/333421963>. - The 
>>>>> interaction
>>>>> of `anchor-name` with content-visibility is not fully implemented,
>>>>> particularly when the anchored element is hidden but the anchor is not. 
>>>>> The
>>>>> spec csswg-drafts/issues/10184
>>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10184> has recently been
>>>>> resolved, so we will implement the resolved behavior. We are tracking this
>>>>> in crbug.com/333443429 <http://crbug.com/333443429>. - The `anchor-scope`
>>>>> CSS property is not yet implemented. We are tracking that in
>>>>> crbug.com/40281992 <http://crbug.com/40281992>. - The
>>>>> “last-successful-position-option” portion of the “determine the position
>>>>> fallback styles” algorithm is not yet implemented. We are tracking that in
>>>>> crbug.com/331841274 <http://crbug.com/331841274>. - There is a discussion
>>>>> about expanding `anchor-size()` to be allowed in more properties
>>>>> (csswg-drafts/issues/9827
>>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9827>) and once that gets
>>>>> resolved, we will implement the resolved behavior. We are tracking this in
>>>>> crbug.com/333421962 <http://crbug.com/333421962>. - There is a discussion
>>>>> (csswg-drafts/issues/10182
>>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10182>) about adding a new
>>>>> "visibility: strongly-hidden" value (which 'position-visibility' forces 
>>>>> the
>>>>> element to compute to), and which can be used in animations/transitions.
>>>>> Once that gets resolved, we will implement the resolved behavior. We are
>>>>> tracking this in crbug.com/333477766 <http://crbug.com/333477766>. We
>>>>> believe all of these corner cases will not impact early adopters of this
>>>>> feature, will be backward-compatible, and we also plan to add support for
>>>>> them (once any spec issues are resolved) in the coming weeks (with
>>>>> additional I2S or PSA). We further strongly believe that there is great
>>>>> value in launching the feature now, to let developers test the overall
>>>>> feature, discover new use cases (and bugs), and increase the level of
>>>>> feedback we receive to continue to shape the feature going forward. {Due 
>>>>> to
>>>>> chromestatus character limitations, not everything from this email exists
>>>>> in the chromestatus entry. This description is more complete.} * Blink
>>>>> component
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * Blink>Layout
>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:Blink%3ELayout>
>>>>> * Search tags
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * css <https://chromestatus.com/features#tags:css>, anchor
>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/features#tags:anchor>, position
>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/features#tags:position> * TAG review
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/848
>>>>> <https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/848> * TAG review
>>>>> status
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * Issues addressed * Risks
>>>>>
>>>>> Interoperability and Compatibility
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * Low risk, since this is a new feature. This feature received very
>>>>> robust review at the CSSWG over many meetings and many years, and has had
>>>>> multiple public working drafts posted. Gecko: Positive
>>>>> (https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/794
>>>>> <https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/794>) WebKit: No
>>>>> signal (https://github.com/WebKit/standards-positions/issues/167
>>>>> <https://github.com/WebKit/standards-positions/issues/167>) Web 
>>>>> developers:
>>>>> Strongly positive (https://crbug.com/40059176
>>>>> <https://issues.chromium.org/issues/40059176> has 37 stars) Lots of 
>>>>> excited
>>>>> developer blog posts: - https://kizu.dev/anchor-positioning-experiments/
>>>>> <https://kizu.dev/anchor-positioning-experiments/> -
>>>>> https://12daysofweb.dev/2023/anchor-positioning/
>>>>> <https://12daysofweb.dev/2023/anchor-positioning/> -
>>>>> https://blog.logrocket.com/use-css-anchor-positioning/
>>>>> <https://blog.logrocket.com/use-css-anchor-positioning/> -
>>>>> https://frontendmasters.com/blog/drawing-a-line-to-connect-elements-with-css-anchor-positioning/
>>>>> <https://frontendmasters.com/blog/drawing-a-line-to-connect-elements-with-css-anchor-positioning/>
>>>>> -
>>>>> https://medium.com/@shriyanspranaybuisness/css-anchor-positioning-ec9f861f4498
>>>>> <https://medium.com/@shriyanspranaybuisness/css-anchor-positioning-ec9f861f4498>
>>>>> - …and many more * Ergonomics
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * One feature that works quite nicely with anchor positioning is the
>>>>> Popover API, which will soon be supported in all browsers. There should 
>>>>> not
>>>>> be any performance issues, since the API was designed carefully with
>>>>> performance in mind. * Activation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * There is an anchor positioning polyfill
>>>>> <https://github.com/oddbird/css-anchor-positioning> for some features (see
>>>>> the Limitations section in the linked document), but it may not be
>>>>> up-to-date with the latest syntax changes.
>>>>> <https://github.com/oddbird/css-anchor-positioning> There are also a few
>>>>> quite common libraries that do "anchor positioning" in userspace, e.g.
>>>>> popper.js <https://popper.js.org/docs/v2/> / floating-ui
>>>>> <https://floating-ui.com/>. Much of the functionality in those libraries
>>>>> could be implemented using the anchor positioning API, and we have engaged
>>>>> with the authors of these libraries to incorporate important use cases. *
>>>>> Security
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * N/A * WebView application risks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such
>>>>> that it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based applications?
>>>>> No. * Debuggability
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * DevTools has basic support for anchor positioning, including making
>>>>> sure auto-fallback styles are properly displayed. There is a plan to add
>>>>> advanced support (e.g. showing the current anchor element for an anchor
>>>>> reference) in the future. * Will this feature be supported on all six
>>>>> Blink platforms (Windows, Mac, Linux, ChromeOS, Android, and Android
>>>>> WebView)?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * Yes * Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests
>>>>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/main/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md>
>>>>> ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * Yes https://wpt.fyi/results/css/css-anchor-position
>>>>> <https://wpt.fyi/results/css/css-anchor-position> * Flag name on
>>>>> chrome://flags
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * CSSAnchorPositioning * Finch feature name
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * CSSAnchorPositioning * Requires code in //chrome?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * False * Tracking bug
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * https://issues.chromium.org/issues/40059176
>>>>> <https://issues.chromium.org/issues/40059176> * Measurement
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * https://chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/4467
>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/4467> * 
>>>>> Sample
>>>>> links https://anchor-tool.com
>>>>> Estimated milestones
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * Shipping on desktop: 125 DevTrial on desktop: 104 Shipping on
>>>>> Android: 125 DevTrial on Android: 104 Shipping on WebView: 125 * 
>>>>> Anticipated
>>>>> spec changes
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * There are no known spec changes planned that might risk interop. As
>>>>> a large feature, there are (and will likely always be) open issues to
>>>>> expand the feature, add capabilities, tweak corner cases, etc. After
>>>>> landing the initial feature, developers will begin to explore how it 
>>>>> works,
>>>>> and will undoubtedly discover new ways to use it, potentially uncovering
>>>>> new feature requests or behavior change requests. This is as-intended, and
>>>>> is the reason we’d like to start shipping this feature now, to get that
>>>>> process started. This is all equivalent to additions/changes made after
>>>>> shipping CSS flex and grid, for example. There is a very small list of 
>>>>> open
>>>>> issues
>>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Acss-anchor-position-1>,
>>>>> most of which are small editorial issues. A few represent changes needed 
>>>>> to
>>>>> the spec, and those are all discussed in the Summary section above. Upon a
>>>>> very careful review, none of the open issues appear to present any type of
>>>>> backwards compatibility issue, if addressed properly. * Link to entry
>>>>> on the Chrome Platform Status
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * https://chromestatus.com/feature/5124922471874560
>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/feature/5124922471874560> * Links to
>>>>> previous Intent discussions
>>>>>
>>>>> Intent to prototype:
>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/vsPddM3fGj0/m/5s87Yx95BAAJ
>>>>>
>>>>> Ready for Trial:
>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/vsPddM3fGj0/m/5s87Yx95BAAJ
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status
>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/> {and edited to provide more context}.
>>>>>
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>>>>> .
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