--- David Hobby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gautam Mukunda wrote: > > > > --- David Hobby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Why do you think that Osama bin Laden objects to > the > > same things about American foreign policy that you > do? > > That's not a fair tactic in an argument.
But that seems to be _your_ argument. If we understand why they are angry at us and seek to act in such a way as to assuage their anger, they won't attack us any more. What you _want_ the US to do anyways seems to accord precisely with this. > > > In all seriousness, why do you think that his > > objection is things that you define as "selfish" - > > although others may not, of course. Given what he > > supports, and what his supporters support, how > does > > one follow from the other? > > Sorry, I can't figure out what you mean here. > Clarify? You keep saying if we didn't act selfishly, they wouldn't have us. Why do you think that actions you think of as selfish are the ones that make Bin Laden and his ilk hate us? > Branding them as "evil" doesn't really help to make > > things clearer. I render your statement as > something on the > order of "...people who do bad things do them > because they > are people who do bad things." Which is vacuous. No, it just happens to be true. You can and should seek to understand motivations, but that doesn't mean that you lend motivations moral weight, which is your fundamental mistake. I don't really understand why Stalin did what he did, and in some intellectual way, I'd sort of like to. But that doesn't affect my actions or policies one iota. His actions and goals were evil, period, and whatever rationalization or motivation that he might have made them doesn't change the morally and practically necessary response. Similarly with terrorists. _Refusing_ to call evil when you see it is nothing more than moral cowardice, plain and simple - relativism as a refuge for those who unwilling or unable to _act_ when necessary. > > What makes you think that the people who attack us > > would be in favor of us promoting human rights? > Do > > _they_ ever promote human rights? > > Oh, they don't like human rights. They might well > attack us just because of this. But if they do, at > least > we're fighting for a just cause. I'm prepared to > defend > Britney Spear's right to make money by acting like a > harlot, > or whatever. I am not prepared to defend the right > of various > corporations to manipulate things to maximize > profits. Which has nothing to do with anything, of course. _Again_, why do you think that your particular objections to free-market capitalism have anything to do with Bin Laden and his supporters? > No, I don't. What I want to do is remove the > incentive > that the US acts selfishly and unjustly. Doing so > would earn > us more friends, and fewer enemies. Why do you think your definition of selfish and unjust corresponds with that of our enemies? Why, for that matter, do you think that any action by the US concomitant with national interests - and, quite possibly, survival - would be acceptable by our enemies? > > > _They_ claim that their problem with the United > States > > is existential, not political. They object not to > > what we _do_, but what we _are_. Al Qaeda > published a > > list of demands in the Arabic press - the first > one > > was that the attacks would stop when everyone in > the > > US converted to Islam. > > That's their rhetoric, sure. But they do have to > find > people who REALLY care for their cause to carry out > the attacks. > If our actions were better, such zealots would be a > lot rarer. What makes you think so? Why do you think they don't care for their cause? What suggests that they are not totally sincere in their desire to convert everyone in the world to Islam and kill every Jew on the planet?Again and again, we keep circling around to this. Why is such hatred necessarily, automatically, the fault of the people who are hated? Do you believe that generally, or just in the case of the United States? > > > Would you have told the Jews of the 1940s that > they > > needed to understand why they were hated? The > victims > > of Stalin's purges? Mao's? > > By now, this is a bad analogy. These groups were > oppressed minorities. So what? By your definition, then, anyone who is not an oppressed minority and is hated automatically deserves that hatred? Why? > But it's not one monolithic group! Some idiots > want > everyone in the world to adhere to their religion. > Others are > driven by more reasonable concerns. Let's deal with > their > concerns. Then all we have to do is fight the > former faction. > > ---David What are you talking about? Splitting Al Qaeda? I don't think there is anyone there with reasonable concerns. The Arab world? What do you think the larger concern is there? If it's democratization and the injustice of their governments - then we've done just about the only thing I can imagine that might help that along. If it's Israel - then the problem is them, not us, because they must accept the existence of Israel, and until that happens, then, _again_, we can't give them what they want. That should also give you some sense of the victory conditions. We are _at war_. In 1942, does anyone think FDR knew exactly how the war would end? Of course not. Nor do we know here. When the Arab world looks something like Western Europe today, then it will definitely be over. Hopefully some time before that as well the use of terrorism against the West will have been forsaken as entirely counterproductive. That's when we win. Before that the attacks _on us_ will continue, and pretending that we're not at war is nothing more than an invitation for further assaults. I expect that my lifetime will be dominated by this struggle. But it will end with our victory, one way or the other - as long as we choose to make it so. ===== Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Freedom is not free" http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
