--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > In a message dated 2/15/2004 8:02:24 PM Eastern > Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > writes: > See here is where I wonder about your perspective. > My main experience with > conservative political thought is from the talking > heads on TV and conservative > politicians. They seem pretty damn sure of > themselves.They talk about the > little guy and the common american folk but they > sure don't seem to want to help > them very much. Some of the things that the current > administration has said and > done show in my opinion contempt for the > intelligence of the american > electorate. Using WMD as the reason for the war > because they didn't think americans > would be willing to fight just to change the > political culture in the middle > east is showing contempt or at least a lack of trust > in the judgement of > americans. > Disclaimer: Many liberals also have contempt for the > people. Unfortunately > this seems to be a trait of politicians in general. > But I think you are just not > seeing things clearly here. > > How about this as a general rule. We all accept that > there are people of bad > faith at all points in the political spectrum. That > way we all know that > everyone is an ahole and all americans are idiots > and we can get on with the debate > at hand.
I think there _are_ people who act in bad faith on all sides of the political spectrum, yes. I actually think there are relatively few. Most people in politics are, I think, good people doing the best they can in a difficult environment. I thought that about (most) Clinton Administration policies, I think that about (most) Bush Administration policies, and I will probably think that about most people in the Administration of whoever wins the next Presidency. I'd disagree with you on several points. You say conservatives don't want to help common folk very much. I think you're exactly wrong - they want to help "common folk" in an entirely different way than you do. I happen to think their way is better. Suppose I was arguing about motives from results in the same way? Let's look at welfare. In my opinion the major product of the welfare system as created in the 1960s was to create a permanent underclass of people dependent on the government, with negative incentives that could not have been better designed to destroy the values that had the best shot at getting people _out_ of poverty in the first place. It was conservatives who fought to reform that system, against strong liberal opposition. They won, and the poor are much better off for it. So, I could, judging by the same standards, say that what liberals _really_ wanted was to create that permanent underclass, a captive voting block continually supporting liberal causes, and one served by an ever-expanding government bureaucracy made up of people who _also_ all voted for liberal causes. It just happened to do a lot of harm to the poor. Maybe that wasn't important to liberals? No. I reject that argument entirely. It is, I think, an explanation for the facts as parsimonious as what I think actually happened - that the left was committed (for ideological reasons) to a fundamentally flawed view of the causes of poverty and, for simple but powerful institutional dynamics reasons, was captured by interest groups that had a primary focus on preserving and increasing government funding. None of that means that people didn't care about helping the poor. They were just doing it in a way that was actually _hurting_ the poor. Which is why conservatives had to stop them. I didn't - and every conservative I know didn't - support welfare reform because we _didn't_ care about the poor. It was because we _did_, and we had to save them from the people who claimed they were helping them. Where I disagree with you can pretty much be encapsulated in the above argument. Just because someone disagrees with the means that you prefer to do certain things, a lot of people on this list seem to believe that means that we're hostile to your ends. I want to change welfare, so that must mean I'm hostile to the poor. Assuming arguendo I want to cut taxes, so I must be trying to help my rich friends. And so on. Similarly with the WMD thing. I don't think the Bush Administration relied upon WMDs because they were contemptuous of the American public. They did because they provided a clear and unmistakeable justification _in front of the UN_. And they were forced to go to the UN by people who opposed invading Iraq. Do I think they made a mistake? Yes, I think they did. Going to the UN was a mistake, and everything that has followed since then is a product of that mistake. The mistake came from accomodating, not contempt. Maybe that's wrong. But it's an equally - or more - plausible explanation for their actions that _doesn't_ involve bad motives on their part. The _difference_ in views, and the reason this whole discussion got started, is that I've simply never heard any conservative express sentiments even vaguely like those that Tom expressed. I've heard lots of liberals talk like that, though. Does that mean we always follow the opinions of 50.1% of the public? Not at all. Public opinion can be _mistaken_. Conservatism is an almost inherently unpopular position. The United States is an unique exception - a nation whose founding revolution was led by conservatives, and whose revolutionary Civil War was fought with _both sides_ claiming to be the conservative party (they were both wrong, in retrospect). The public can be _wrong_, certainly, although it is (in my opinion) surprisingly rarely. But it's never stupid, or malign. Americans, of all the people in the world, are supremely goodhearted. American conservatives are a lot of things. Many of them are not particularly admirable. But I've never met an American conservative who didn't _like_ Americans, and I've never met one who didn't respect the extraordinary wisdom of the American public. The question I would pose to you is why so many liberals _don't_. ===== Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Freedom is not free" http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
