--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > You assume that Millions of average people had a blind hatred, and > > had found justification any way they could, simply to persecute a > > group they had blind hatred for. > > > In fact millions of people did hate the jews. It was the official position of > the > Church and most states for over 1000 years.
Hay, you won't get me defending the Catholic church. And you might notice for a second that I am not talking about leadership. The Europeans did a lot of forced cristianity. They did that just as much to every other religion,...or non religion. It wasn't specificaly addressed at the Jews, but rather at anyone who did not comform. > Why not read a bit of history before you continue to make remarks like this. > Try Johnson's "History of the Jews" or "Constantines Sword" Yes, but you could read a bit about any other people and the hardships they have experienced. The species is rather violent, and agressive to those who believe or act differently. > > That sounds a bit like raceism to me. Have you not vilified a whole > > people? > > It isn't racism by the way but if you are asking me if christians bear > collective guilt for what was done to the jews over and over again throughout the > west, well yes. Oh, so -YOU (the individual)- DO believe in collective guilt for christians, but you don't believe in collective guilt for jews? >Does that mean that Christians need to go around apologizing to > Jews. Of course not. Does it mean that they have a moral obligation to avoid > statements and actions that put jews at risk or in fear; yes absolutely. Didn't this all start from a conversation about some jewish leaders who tried and silence the chrisians religion when it was just getting started? What "moral obligation" does that in your reconing then place on jews? You can't have it both ways. Either there is collective guilt or there isn't. I think also that most other jews would agree with me. But then, a good many of my friends are jewish by birth, but not religion. > When the crusaders stopped in Mainse in Germany and > demanded that the jews convert or die, that was not about money lending, It was > about burning woman and children who refused to convert. Even other non christians. > When jews were tortured and murdered in the Spanish Inquisition .... Yes jews were among those murdered in the spanish inquisition, so were many others. When Pope Pious did not lift a > finger when the Nazis marched jews in frount of the Vatican City in World War > II that was not about money. Those eveil christians, their leaders sat by and did nothing instead of getting killed. >When the US military command refused to bomb > Auschwitz even they knew that the Germans were murdering jews in large numbers and > despite the pleas of american What? Ok I have studied a lot about WWII and that has never come up. Besides, even if the US Military knew would you have them kill possibly thousands in the attack? Would it have been better for the US bombs to kill them, or the gas that we now know they were subjected to? >It is > about anti-semtism promoted or at least condoned by organized christianity. Yes christians are anti-jewish faith. They are also anti- everyotherfaith. > Are you serious? The rest of the statement went on to say that this is > hogwash. The jews did what they had to do because they were allowed to do nothing > else. Do you understand that the vast majority of jews lived in grinding poverty > throughout most of their history. A few jews earned a lot of money (only to > have it taken away on occasion on the whim of king or priest) but most were > incredibly poor. Not at the time we were discussing. And not in the eyes of the average christian european. Hate? yes that did occure. Evil, yes, but there were early warning signs. That is what we should be interested in, how do humans get to that state. _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
