> From: Nick Arnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Perhaps there's a 'How things ought to work' collory to the 'Golden age' > > meme. > > In my experience, "oughts," "shoulds" and their ilk are the seeds of > resentment. I guess we agree on this. > > > Actually I was mostly just trying to criticize his remarks about how Mr. > > Gates is taking away the ability of future entrepreneurs to do what Mr. > > Gates himself did (Qbasic shipped windows with up till win98SE), which is > > the same kind of argument as the 'golden age' meme. > > Not sure I caught that in the thread, but I do think Microsoft has been
> predatory for quite a while now. But Bill's orientation has always been > to package innovation (anyone's) to maximize market share -- he's never > thought of that as predatory. He's got a blind spot there, in my > experience, so I think David has it right. Well He said: " My biggest example is the silent, unnoticed vanishing of any programming language from personal computers. I swear, I CANNOT GET A MACHINE WITH SIMPLE BASIC IN ORDER TO TEACH IT TO MY SON! It has taken 2 years, and I hope to get an old pentium machine soon with DOS 6.2 and BASIC aboard, so I can teach him the fundamentals of moving a dot via a simple algorithm. Silently, unnoticed, this has happened and a new generation will be able to make web pages and fancy Flash digitals... but without any grasp of the line coding underneath. " And: " I think you all miss the point. I have dozens of old books with simple BASIC programs in them that tell the computer to compute or to move a dot in ways that show the vital importance of a simple algorithm at creating what appears on the screen. If I had BASIC I could sit with my son and type in these examples and swiftly establish a sense of power at the gut level of the machine. Most of the languages you mention are much higher level. Some involve GUI drag and drop methods that bear NO relation to what I'm talking about. Certainly none of them enable a dad to use the mountains of past experience sitting right here on our shelves. Thanks. But the only hope I seem to have is if this guy I know gets around to giving us an old machine with DOS aboard. Utterly pathetic. " And: " 1. I already know BASIC, so sitting with my son with BASIC would be a straightforward thing. Any reasonable man would expect to be allowed/able to do so. 2. I am awash in books that offer simple line-by-line tutorial programs. 3. All the rich guys at Microsoft got there via a path that they have now closed to another generation. It is insane that ANYONE should have to go hunting and downloading in order to do simple things that anyone with a PC could do ten years ago. I shall probably hunt/download python sometime... and I deeply resent that I must at my age learn a new language that will be obsolete in no time, just to replicate WHAT ALREADY EXISTED VASTLY MORE CONVENIENTLY. Again, this has been a 2 year search. If you do not see the irony and frustration, please do not ridicule me for seeing it. " And: " But after the horror of trying xbasic and qbasic and all the others, I do not expect much success. All were created by techies who suffer from techie-disease... an absolute assumption that everyboddy who downloads their compiler will instantly and miraculously know how to use it. The manuals are gibberish. There is nothing at all resembling a simple place to write line by line code and simply typr "run". ... Thanks also for that. But I did try to explain my frustration. I already know BASIC. I have books. I have a zillion sample programs that are EXACTLY what I want to teach. Logo looks nice but I do not have the time to learn another language and it definitely looks "higher" than the algorithm-based level that I have wanted to show to my son. I want Z=2x, x=1, print Z. I want to move a DOT using a simple mathematicall algorithm. I have examples in books. Why can I not show this to my son? It is EXACTLY what Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and Wozniak did. Maybe that's why they have ensured that no one else can. " All before I said a word. Then he continues with: " In fact, I simply wanted to show my son the relationship between math and the location of the myriad dots on a computer screen. By letting HIM create a program that uses an algorithm to achieve results, I hope to demystify computers and coding and show that it all comes down to lines of code. You may choose to interpret this as "the past is better". But since, as you say, this is diametrically opposite to my philosophy, an honorable approach might have been to take that interpretation and contemplate the wise words: "I might be mistaken." " And: " The goal of teaching my children the relationship between mathematical algorithms and effects upon a screen would seem eminently desireable and obvious. So obvious that I find it hilarious that you assume your lack of comprehension is MY problem. Never considering the possibility that it is yours. As for QBasic, I never claimed that it did not work, only that its approach was obtuse, its tutorials badly written and cause-effect hard to follow. I feel no need to spend 30 hours learning an unnecessarily complex system within which I plan to work (with my son) for less than ten. " Dr. Brin believes that a "SIMPLE BASIC" existed, that can run "simple BASIC programs" that "move['s] a DOT using a simple mathematicall [SIC] algorithm" "via a simple algorithm" "that show the vital importance of a simple algorithm" from written "books that offer simple line-by-line tutorial programs", but unfortunately "There is nothing at all resembling a simple place to write line by line code and simply typr [SIC] 'run'" in these new "obtuse", "cause-effect hard to follow", "unnecessarily complex system['s]", in which "All were created by techies who suffer from techie-disease" and "replicate WHAT ALREADY EXISTED VASTLY MORE CONVENIENTLY" in the golden age but "will be obsolete in no time" while he furthers points out: "The manuals are gibberish", "its tutorials badly written", "and I deeply resent that I must at my age learn a new language" because he "feel[s] no need to spend 30 hours learning" because he "do[es] not have the time to learn another language" because "none of them enable a dad to use the mountains of past experience sitting right here on our shelves" from "dozens of old books" that he is "awash in". And in his "frustration" from his "2 year search" for the golden fleece, he has uncovered the nefarious plot of "Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and Wozniak" and "All the rich guys at Microsoft" to perpetrate the "silent, unnoticed vanishing of any programming language from personal computers" and how "Silently, unnoticed, this has happened and a new generation will be able to make web pages and fancy Flash digitals... but without any grasp of the line coding underneath" because "Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and Wozniak" climbed the ladder and "Maybe that's why they have ensured that no one else can" climb that ladder, which makes new PC operating systems without the mystical golden fleece "Utterly pathetic". Not to mention several Bizzarro-Brin conspiracy theories about China stealing the copyright to UNIX through "SINUX". And anyone who dares to point out errors / failings of the never wrong Dr. Brin doesn't use "honorable approach['s]" and their criticisms are "mistaken" and have a "lack of comprehension". So in short, Dr. Brin is suffering from "Golden Age" Meme with touches of "Elitist Arrogance" meme. Furthermore Dr. Brin argues about the wonders of 'low level' interpreters such as Basic, which in reality are several layers _more_ removed from actual machine code than the 'higher level' languages that he complains about. Indeed, short of writing code in machine language, he's not actually accomplishing the very thing he complains about. And perhaps that's the problem, because real low level cause and effect machine / assembly languages are much more "complex" than the high level Basic language that he has simplified to. Apparently Dr. Brin prefers things that are "Simple", and yet at the very same time he is railing against "higher", "simpler" languages. I'm sure an intelligent person can see the Irony in that. _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
