On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:14:08 -0500, Dan Minette wrote > > Whose definition is it? Yours? Bush's? Mine? > > Bush's.
Cite please, in that case. > But, Bonhoeffer sought peace through a bomb...which is the same as seeing > peace at the barrel of a gun. There are times when Gandhi's > techniques are best, there are times when Bonhoeffer's are. Did I suggest that I believe that Gandhi's "techniques" are best in all situations? I held him up as an example of the reality that regime change, even in the face of oppressive rule, can take place peacefully. I think his approach would be a wonderful way to deal with the existence of nuclear weapons, but not one that's flying toward me at Mach 5. I'm not asking the Marines to stop fighting and talk nice to the people who are shooting at them. > Is one required to try alternatives that have virtually no chance of > working? I don't feel required to respond to an argument from your premise. My premise is that when most of the churches of the world say that what you're about to do is wrong, it is imperative to stop and consider what they are saying, to at least meet with their leaders and listen. > This may be a good place to point out that this type of argument I was reporting that I felt angry, not making an argument. > >but God asked us to let events unfold, rather than insisting on unfolding > them our way. > > OK, can you tell me how to discern this? We cannot easily, which is why the moral presumption must be against actions that cause great evil, such as war, especially when many others in the body of Christ oppose it. > When, according to our best > understanding, we have an opportunity to decrease human suffering > and death, when does God call us to let things unfold instead, > increasing human suffering and death? When does God call us to say > no when people ask for help? Who called for help? Exactly which Iraqis called for us to invade and occupy their country? Was there any evidence of even an partial consensus for that? It is exactly this kind of situation when we are most susceptible to the temptation to believe that "we" are good victims and "they" are bad people, so anything goes. That's when it becomes most critical to listen to others instead of shutting them out. > So, if we use reason to see who has the capacity to physically stop > a dictator and the short list has one name, then it's presumptuous > to trust reason. Must dictators be physically stopped? That is not only morally unclear, but it is certainly not political policy, so I can't see it as anything but a straw man. > But, that's not what I am doing. I can understand the rational > behind such a presumption. But, I do not accept denying that the > result of not going to war would be that Hussein would stay in power > for the foreseeable future. And we absolutely had to remove him from power as quickly as possible? Why? On what basis was there such urgency all of a sudden? > That wasn't the question I was asking. The question is whether it > was faith to believe that, if we act is manner X, God would change > the course of the river (metaphorically). I don't think that is > sound theology. Of course it isn't. Who do you think was making such a magical argument? I believe that when God intervenes, it is almost always through us. There's a statue of Christ in Germany, as I recall, that lost its hands in the bombings of WW II. Someone put a sign on it that say, "Christ has no hands but yours." > One > way of phrasing it is to count on God to work wonders to get us out > of having to deal with a moral dilemma is putting God to the test. I can't see that as anything but a straw man. Are you under the impression that I am advocating that we stand back and wait for a miracle? We could go on and on about this, I'm sure, but it seems to me that you're arguing for a God who is pro-war, an idea that I cannot swallow. Even when the Old Testament speaks of war, it has to do with human failure, not God's will. Anything that even suggests that God wishes for us to go to war seems like a terrible, triumphalist twisting of Scripture to me. What do you imagine God has to say to our soldiers who have had to kill in the line of duty? Congratulations for doing my will? Or, I understand and forgive? "Our task should not be to invoke religion and the name of God by claiming God's blessing and endorsement for all our national policies and practices - saying, in effect, that God is on our side. Rather, we should pray and worry earnestly whether we are on God's side." --Abraham Lincoln Nick _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
