Nice obituary, Mary :) -Joseph
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 at 12:38, Mary Hickey <[email protected]> wrote: > To the entire GNU-bg Community, > > I remain a GNU fan even though I'm *One of Those People* who stopped > using it once XG established itself as the go-to backgammon bot. And having > read this email exchange, I'm shouting out a huge "THANK YOU!" to this > community for its contribution to the game, and its example of > co-operation, trust and mutual respect among programmers from all over the > world. > > I'm not a coder, but remember helping test the GNU-bots at FIBS and > providing feedback regarding their practical play on FIBS to the > developers. I appreciate the GNU community's generosity in permitting > GNU-engined bots to play on any servers that want them. > > Wherever this project goes from here, the co-operation and always > respectful communications among the members of this community shine > brightly in a world that needs more of those qualities. > > Sincerely yours, > > Mary Hickey > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Bug-gnubg <[email protected]> on > behalf of Sarah Payne <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:18 AM > *To:* pviau <[email protected]> > *Cc:* [email protected] <[email protected]>; Øystein Schønning-Johansen < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* RE: current development > > > Hi Pviau, re position databases I’m guessing this is just the kind of > feedback needed, particularly coming from someone familiar with xg’s > potential. It would be a huge bonus to have a feature like this to launch a > new version & get gnubg back on the radar of serious players. > > > > But I’d suggest just one new feature / usp of this kind (& err towards > keeping it simple). Develop neural nets / cross platform compatibility then > get a new version out there soon as, before people forget how good the > project is. > > > > Completely agree re offline functionality. Also re UI: flat, simple, > clean. Very little required there. > > > > > > Sent from Mail > <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7C469b30ad2eb74093586208d7a1a9e0a5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637155623296757970&sdata=O%2BABWIkZrtcxi5sWa6umDZDcw4tEPOPtNazmYqcW9k4%3D&reserved=0> > for Windows 10 > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* pviau <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Saturday, January 25, 2020 11:04:43 AM > *To:* Sarah Payne <[email protected]> > *Cc:* Øystein Schønning-Johansen <[email protected]>; [email protected] < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: current development > > Hi, > > I’m an ex-avid-gnubg player, but ever since I found XG, I never looked > back. And this is from a die-hard Mac user/evangelist, who actually only > installed Parallels Desktop so that I could run XG on my Macs. Please don’t > tell my friends. > > Neural nets are of course key to take gnubg seriously again, and lots of > competent people will end up taking care of this, I sincerely hope. But I > would like to suggest another angle to evolve gnubg. > > But first a comment on UI/looks. I also do not share the view that gnubg > is much inferior to XG there. Heck, I consider XG’s UI is its only weak > point. It feels like a 1990’s Windows app, because essentially its creator > (who is a fantastic guy) never cared much to evolve his UI skills beyong > what he learned :-) > > So if gnubg needs to improve its UI (which it does), from a visual point > of view the starting point should be something like backgammongalaxy (the > web site). Simple flat color schemes, as little visual noise as possible, > everything geared towards efficiency for learning yet clean and elegant. > And no, no 3D will ever help anybody learn to play better backgammon. > > Now for the other angle I mentioned above. > > What I am missing in the various competent apps around, is a trivial way > to build position databases, and study them. So this is a function which > would make an app stand out, at least for a while: > > - the database itself, with sections and filters etc > - easy to feed from various 1-or-2-click methods (flag a position while > playing, while replaying someone’s match, copy XGid or any other id from > another app and paste into the db, why not even from a screenshot of the > whole board...) > - the possibility to batch-generate technical equity data on a position, a > section, the whole db, using rollouts > - the possibility to define quizz-based studies and score them (on a > section, on any hand-picked list) > - a history of quizz scores to show play quality evolution over time > > All of this can be done today, but it takes a combination of tools and a > lot fiddling. This has to stop :-) > > Oh and finally: Android *AND* iOS have to be on the radar. Absolutely. > Soon only dinosaurs will be carrying around a laptop everywhere they go. I > was talking about myself there, but still even I may evolve one day... > > Cheers, > Pierre > > On 25 Jan 2020, at 11:15, Sarah Payne <[email protected]> wrote: > > Here’s where I’ve got to - hope some of it proves helpful. > > I contacted the USBGF and UKBGF asking for any feedback / interest and / > or recommendations re generating fresh input from a new generation of > coders (also posted similar messages out to a few C programming forums). > > Not much joy here I’m afraid. I think the main issue at USBGF & UKBGF (ie > for professional or competitive players / club players or serious > hobbyists) is how far gnu has fallen behind XG now (unlike Snowie in its > day, XG is generally affordable, available for mobiles & a new version with > enhanced neural nets, compatible with Mac as well as Windows for the first > time, is due for release at the end of the year). > > But ‘free to all’ is still a significant USP for GNUBG especially among > younger players (and in other parts of the world) & GNUBG is still cited up > there as best of the rest on more general games forums. But as far as I can > tell (in the UK at least) there are no clubs / tournaments / forums > ringfenced for younger players so hard to know how to tap into this for > feedback / enthusiasm / new coding talent. > > I also contacted Chris Bray, one of the UK’s leading writers and promoters > of the game. He’s the one who filled me in on the latest re XG. In his > opinion: > > ‘…gnubg always had creditable neural net engines but never had a friendly > User Interface which held it back considerably. I always felt it was > written by technical programmers with little commercial awareness of how > people would use it in the real world.’ > > I don’t share this view. I’m not a techie but I prefer the gnu layout / > interface to XG’s. Having said that, I’m not a professional / competitive > player either, which no doubt involves different priorities. Also I’ve been > playing GNU for a long time & it probably took a few goes to get it set up > the way I wanted (not sure that’s how big a deal that is, though). > > In Bray’s opinion, ‘for gnubg to reemerge as a viable alternative to XG it > will need an enhanced user interface and well-integrated app version for > apple & android tablets / phones, as well as upgraded neural nets.’ > > In my opinion, a phone version would broaden appeal / access but the most > critical issue is the neural nets. XG feels like a very different animal as > an opponent - noticeably more opportunistic & aggressive, so some degree of > congruence asap seems critical for gnubg to hold ground. > > A final note from Chris: > > ‘FYI on my ToDo list is to talk to DeepMind about whether they intend to > create an AlphaZero Backgammon.’ > > No update from him on this as yet. How about contacting them yourself to > propose a gnubg / DeepMind collaboration? > > Alternatively (or also): > > In a subsequent email Chris mentioned ‘seeing an emerging group of > highly-talented younger players, many of them Japanese.’ > > How about a Japanese collaboration / appeal for new coders? Language is > clearly a barrier to this, but would it be possible to find some bilingual > volunteers via the main gnu project to act as go-between? I don’t know how > global the main project is, but backgammon is huge in parts of the Middle > East so appeals here / Africa / India (where English is also more widely > spoken) could also prove fruitful. > > Finally, whilst I haven’t had any specific responses from UKBGF or USBGF > to my general inquiries, it should be possible to put out a broadcast with > either or both of these organisations (& via them to the local club > networks) with specific announcements or requests for feedback eg for or > from younger players / coders interested in collaboration. You may want to > consider this. If it’s general player feedback you want, you probably need > to frame some very specific questions. Oystein said: ‘First we need an > idea, then we have to verify that idea, and then we have to set it into > life, which might trigger a bigger VM or a cluster.’ As a non-techie I get > the gist of this (and as a description of the work process find it > intriguing!) but I’m in the dark as to what type of ideas you mean, or what > kind of information you want. > > There we are, then: my progress to date. Still happy to help, for what > it’s worth, and I would love to be kept updated on any progress your end. > > All best with that, & a Happy New Year to you all – thanks once again for > all the fine work to date. > > Sarah > > > > Sent from Mail > <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7C469b30ad2eb74093586208d7a1a9e0a5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637155623296767984&sdata=5%2F%2BiY322ZhMFiL%2FppEs9oW%2FjGah2BWuL77gZN7Hum8U%3D&reserved=0> > for Windows 10 > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Øystein Schønning-Johansen <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 11, 2019 5:48:59 PM > *To:* Sarah Payne <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: current development > > Yes. Just give it some thought. If you post to the mailing list or to just > me, you can decide yourself. I'm not the most active developer at the time, > so maybe posting to the mailing list is a good idea. > > -Øystein > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 6:10 PM Sarah Payne <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Ok I’ll give this some thought. Do I reply to you or reply all? > > > > Sent from Mail > <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7C469b30ad2eb74093586208d7a1a9e0a5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637155623296777986&sdata=wInQ6vMhRIw4jPXJ45837Q448Hkm9LnkMEPOOOMfAa4%3D&reserved=0> > for Windows 10 > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Øystein Schønning-Johansen <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Monday, December 9, 2019 10:08:34 PM > *To:* Sarah Payne <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: current development > > Hi, Sarah! > > Thanks for your gratitude. I think all involved developers are busy with > other day time jobs, and GNU Backgammon is hence just a spare time > project for us. We hence have what we need for a living through our daily > jobs. However, as you see development has slowed down the later years. > > I think what we need in this project is: > - Motivation > - Enthusiasm > - Cheering > > so, I think that you email started some sparks. You saw that! Maybe if we > just continue to post some messages to this mailing list, maybe something > will even happen. Keep posting suggestions and question and be positive and > cheer up the life of the readers. That will probably be the best > contribution back to the project. > > There might be occasion where some hard money can contribute and that > might be when/if we start training something on big virtual servers, and > these virtual servers can have some cost attached. But that is only > guesswork from me. First we need an idea, then we have to verify that idea, > and then we have to set it into life, which might trigger a bigger VM or a > cluster. In that case we can discuss how to fund that. Sponsors or we chip > in or we get voluntary gifts from backgammon enthusiast? Anyway -- It's far > ahead. > > Maybe fresh blood among the developers might help? Do you go to a local > backgammon club? > Are there any computer geeks and nerds in you club? (apart from you?). The > developers in this projects are old nerds with gray hair or no hair at all > (like me), who learned to develop software last millennium, and maybe some > of the code can be improved if fresh blood was added. If you are playing in > a club, your contribution could be to go over to the young (younger than me > and the other guys in the development team) geek in the corner and ask > him/her if he she has seen GNU Backgammon, or knows neural network, or like > programming, and knows the C programming language... so on.... if you get > a developer interested that can also be your contribution back. :-) > > That's how it goes. And thank you so much for the spark you started. It > means a lot. > > Best rolls and regards > -Øystein > > On Sun, Dec 8, 2019 at 6:36 PM Sarah Payne <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi Oystein > > > > Unfortunately I’m not a coder but I’ve used this software so often for no > charge I was wondering if it’s possible to give money sometimes to the > backgammon project to help keep it going / up to date. I’m sure I can’t be > the only person to feel this way. You should all be very proud of this > programme which has remained competitive for so long even without much > recent development. In my opinion, it’s still the most user friendly set-up > as well - v flexible & intuitive. > > > > What are the biggest hurdles to keeping it competitive? Man hours, > computer hours? Does the neural networking approach used up until this > point need to evolve / become more resource hungry to keep up with > something like Extreme Gammon for example? > > > > Forgive my ignorance in this area – I’m very interested but understand > very little of this area. And if this is not appropriate conversation for > these lists, no problem, just let me know. > > > > Thanks – and please, yes, feel encouraged to get going again! :) > > > > Sarah > > > > > > Sent from Mail > <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7C469b30ad2eb74093586208d7a1a9e0a5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637155623296787994&sdata=9ql0xotmBsZVkPHqLCOlQAEb4haYzPCZG8xF0BpkcpI%3D&reserved=0> > for Windows 10 > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Øystein Schønning-Johansen <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 3, 2019 5:01:50 PM > *To:* Sarah Payne <[email protected]> > *Cc:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: current development > > Hi Sarah! > > Thanks for taking contact. Good to hear that you like GNU Backgammon. > Is it still under development? Hmmm... debatable. There has not been many > major improvements the last few years. > > Take a look at the projects ChangeLog. > > http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/gnubg/gnubg/ChangeLog?revision=1.2654&view=markup > <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcvs.savannah.gnu.org%2Fviewvc%2Fgnubg%2Fgnubg%2FChangeLog%3Frevision%3D1.2654%26view%3Dmarkup&data=02%7C01%7C%7C469b30ad2eb74093586208d7a1a9e0a5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637155623296798002&sdata=ZCTYVwY6QJNW42idABivcJbslUxupCDEATkIPChSdP0%3D&reserved=0> > > As you see there isn't much happening. > > Of course you can contribute if you want. After all this project is Open > Source an anyone can do whatever changes they want. > Just post comments here on the mailing list, and it can shear up some of > the sleeping developers. > > If you are a developer and want to contribute with code, we can of course > provide you write access to the cvs repository. (Yes, it is as old that > it's using cvs to do code revision). > Since everyone is more or less "sleeping", there is no real TODO list. > Maybe some code janitor work? Refactoring? Maybe c99-ify some of the code. > Maybe you can suggest a feature? Or report a bug? > > Even though I'm not doing much on GNU Backgammon (I've not done much the > last 10 years) these days, I guess if we just chat about some details, it > might be the spark that starts up a new motivation among us. There are some > discussions still on this mailing list, last week there was a new Match > Equity Table presented (Thanks Ian). If we just chat more, maybe something > can start flowing again. I'm getting more time as my kids grow older. So, > who knows what happens. > > Best regards, > -Øystein > > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:58 PM Sarah Payne <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hello there. Been a huge fan for many years of gnu backgammon, many thanks > to everyone involved. Is the software still under development with new > versions coming? Is it possible to contribute directly to this project? > > > > Thanks > > > > Sarah > > > > Sent from Mail > <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7C469b30ad2eb74093586208d7a1a9e0a5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637155623296808016&sdata=GEgAZti9L86hny6n45lnXCNzD77KbAU2u0YtZ4LZ0bA%3D&reserved=0> > for Windows 10 > > >
