Just 2 more cents: Backgammon Studio is great, but it’s not just the quizz aspect I was advocating as a feature for a future “attractive gnubg”, it’s having your own position database to evolve and study. This apparently is not possible in Studio, although I may have missed it.
Sure rehearsing generic databases (say openings and replies) is great, but maintaining and studying your own set of reference positions is invaluable. And I’ll say again: I wish we could rehearse without any internet connection (plane ride, or whatever reason for not being online). Cheers, Pierre _____ > On 29 Jan 2020, at 10:28, Sarah Payne <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Joseph. Before responding to your last let me repeat that I don’t have > anything like the skill or experience necessary to contribute real expertise > here, only enthusiasm for the game & a great deal of admiration for the gnubg > project, so please make allowances for that. But re your query about analysis > of gnu with xg: could this be the next step for planning an update / new > release? > > For sure, I would expect gnu still to have some playing strengths against xg. > That’s what is so impressive: how it’s still as strong as it is with no new > recent versions. Let’s not forget we’re only comparing it to what’s currently > considered to be the world’s best. > > Intuitively? I think gnu still has something xg doesn’t, ‘a different animal’ > is not a criticism per se. But as you point out, intuition is nothing. Also > it doesn’t seem necessary to wait another year for the new version of xg. > This kind of comparative / competitive development will always be ongoing / > open-ended. > > > > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10 > > From: Joseph Heled <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 9:23:36 PM > To: Mary Hickey <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Cc: Sarah Payne <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; > pviau <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; Timothy Y. Chow > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; Michael Petch > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; Øystein Schønning-Johansen > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; Chris Yep > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: Re: current development > > Sounds like a good idea, but why bother with BOTS? just play against the > current GNU version and analyze with XG. Perhaps this has already been done > and just needs publicizing? > > -Joseph > > > On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 at 10:04, Mary Hickey <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Hi Joseph, > > I was referring more to the interface than the playing strength, but you are > right that the general perception is that XG is the gold standard regarding > playing as well as onscreen viewing and printing. Maybe that perception needs > to be addressed, though since a new version of XG is rumored to be coming out > soon, it might be better to wait and compare GNU to that instead. > > One way to produce some data, which isn't exactly the same as evidence, is > have a bunch of us play vs. whatever bot is considered to be the best > representation of GNU at the various servers, then chuck the matches through > XG at a comparable level, say 3-ply rather than world class. Has this already > been done? And if this idea makes any sense, which bot at FIBS and also at > Backgammon Studio best represents the current GNU? And what level of XG > analysis is to be considered comparable? > > After we find where the bots differ, we can roll the positions out and see > which gets the nod. I'd trust either bot to roll them out well on good > settings. > > I like this method because it's not difficult either to understand or to do. > It won't detect all the flaws in either program, because rarer positions > aren't as likely to be seen even in a large number of matches > (...duh...that's why they're rare LOL) but we might learn something anyway. > > Mary > > > > From: Joseph Heled <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 3:24 PM > To: Mary Hickey <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Cc: Sarah Payne <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; > pviau <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; Timothy Y. Chow > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; Michael Petch > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; Øystein Schønning-Johansen > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: Re: current development > > I am very happy to see (reasonably priced) for-pay services for BG players. > It means the game is still alive, which is far more important than any one > BOT, free or not. > > But perceptions vs. reality is one of the issues we are talking about, > right? would you be able to put something, based on your experience, that > will show that XG and GNU-BG are not that different in terms of playing > strength, or "prove us wrong" by showing why XG is superior? > > -Joseph > > > On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 at 08:19, Mary Hickey <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Hi Joseph, > > It doesn't have to be the end, but from the posts I'm reading, it appears > many programming person-hours will need to be directed just toward catching > up with XG and other tools now available elsewhere. For example, Pierre talks > about quizzes, but you can take quizzes all day and night at > backgammonstudio.com > <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbackgammonstudio.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C030bbcfb1ca14c26083408d7a366e372%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637157534606092724&sdata=8M%2FQP3n7Ju%2FwpWDoze0rqH3cXCNR6XyY3tpkA%2Fpf2Yg%3D&reserved=0>, > play vs. other people, yak at the forum and also study an extensive library > of matches for $24 a year. > > But since GNU is the bot that follows you in consultation matches there, and > also is the engine running the FIBS-bots if memory serves, it has some > immortality, don't you think? > > Mary > > From: Joseph Heled <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 2:03 PM > To: Mary Hickey <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Cc: Sarah Payne <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; > pviau <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; Timothy Y. Chow > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; Michael Petch > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; > Øystein Schønning-Johansen <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: Re: current development > > Nice obituary, Mary :) > > -Joseph > > > On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 at 12:38, Mary Hickey <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > To the entire GNU-bg Community, > > I remain a GNU fan even though I'm One of Those People who stopped using it > once XG established itself as the go-to backgammon bot. And having read this > email exchange, I'm shouting out a huge "THANK YOU!" to this community for > its contribution to the game, and its example of co-operation, trust and > mutual respect among programmers from all over the world. > > I'm not a coder, but remember helping test the GNU-bots at FIBS and providing > feedback regarding their practical play on FIBS to the developers. I > appreciate the GNU community's generosity in permitting GNU-engined bots to > play on any servers that want them. > > Wherever this project goes from here, the co-operation and always respectful > communications among the members of this community shine brightly in a world > that needs more of those qualities. > > Sincerely yours, > > Mary Hickey > > > > > From: Bug-gnubg <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> on behalf of Sarah Payne > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:18 AM > To: pviau <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>>; Øystein Schønning-Johansen <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: RE: current development > > Hi Pviau, re position databases I’m guessing this is just the kind of > feedback needed, particularly coming from someone familiar with xg’s > potential. It would be a huge bonus to have a feature like this to launch a > new version & get gnubg back on the radar of serious players. > > But I’d suggest just one new feature / usp of this kind (& err towards > keeping it simple). Develop neural nets / cross platform compatibility then > get a new version out there soon as, before people forget how good the > project is. > > Completely agree re offline functionality. Also re UI: flat, simple, clean. > Very little required there. > > > Sent from Mail > <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7C030bbcfb1ca14c26083408d7a366e372%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637157534606102723&sdata=VkDbQCR4oD0wLoRQacLPYBxmejzGzQhLmp3fD%2BPb3uU%3D&reserved=0> > for Windows 10 > > From: pviau <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2020 11:04:43 AM > To: Sarah Payne <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Cc: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>>; [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: Re: current development > > Hi, > > I’m an ex-avid-gnubg player, but ever since I found XG, I never looked back. > And this is from a die-hard Mac user/evangelist, who actually only installed > Parallels Desktop so that I could run XG on my Macs. Please don’t tell my > friends. > > Neural nets are of course key to take gnubg seriously again, and lots of > competent people will end up taking care of this, I sincerely hope. But I > would like to suggest another angle to evolve gnubg. > > But first a comment on UI/looks. I also do not share the view that gnubg is > much inferior to XG there. Heck, I consider XG’s UI is its only weak point. > It feels like a 1990’s Windows app, because essentially its creator (who is a > fantastic guy) never cared much to evolve his UI skills beyong what he > learned :-) > > So if gnubg needs to improve its UI (which it does), from a visual point of > view the starting point should be something like backgammongalaxy (the web > site). Simple flat color schemes, as little visual noise as possible, > everything geared towards efficiency for learning yet clean and elegant. And > no, no 3D will ever help anybody learn to play better backgammon. > > Now for the other angle I mentioned above. > > What I am missing in the various competent apps around, is a trivial way to > build position databases, and study them. So this is a function which would > make an app stand out, at least for a while: > > - the database itself, with sections and filters etc > - easy to feed from various 1-or-2-click methods (flag a position while > playing, while replaying someone’s match, copy XGid or any other id from > another app and paste into the db, why not even from a screenshot of the > whole board...) > - the possibility to batch-generate technical equity data on a position, a > section, the whole db, using rollouts > - the possibility to define quizz-based studies and score them (on a section, > on any hand-picked list) > - a history of quizz scores to show play quality evolution over time > > All of this can be done today, but it takes a combination of tools and a lot > fiddling. This has to stop :-) > > Oh and finally: Android *AND* iOS have to be on the radar. Absolutely. Soon > only dinosaurs will be carrying around a laptop everywhere they go. I was > talking about myself there, but still even I may evolve one day... > > Cheers, > Pierre > >> On 25 Jan 2020, at 11:15, Sarah Payne <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Here’s where I’ve got to - hope some of it proves helpful. >> >> I contacted the USBGF and UKBGF asking for any feedback / interest and / or >> recommendations re generating fresh input from a new generation of coders >> (also posted similar messages out to a few C programming forums). >> >> Not much joy here I’m afraid. I think the main issue at USBGF & UKBGF (ie >> for professional or competitive players / club players or serious hobbyists) >> is how far gnu has fallen behind XG now (unlike Snowie in its day, XG is >> generally affordable, available for mobiles & a new version with enhanced >> neural nets, compatible with Mac as well as Windows for the first time, is >> due for release at the end of the year). >> >> But ‘free to all’ is still a significant USP for GNUBG especially among >> younger players (and in other parts of the world) & GNUBG is still cited up >> there as best of the rest on more general games forums. But as far as I can >> tell (in the UK at least) there are no clubs / tournaments / forums >> ringfenced for younger players so hard to know how to tap into this for >> feedback / enthusiasm / new coding talent. >> >> I also contacted Chris Bray, one of the UK’s leading writers and promoters >> of the game. He’s the one who filled me in on the latest re XG. In his >> opinion: >> >> ‘…gnubg always had creditable neural net engines but never had a friendly >> User Interface which held it back considerably. I always felt it was written >> by technical programmers with little commercial awareness of how people >> would use it in the real world.’ >> >> I don’t share this view. I’m not a techie but I prefer the gnu layout / >> interface to XG’s. Having said that, I’m not a professional / competitive >> player either, which no doubt involves different priorities. Also I’ve been >> playing GNU for a long time & it probably took a few goes to get it set up >> the way I wanted (not sure that’s how big a deal that is, though). >> >> In Bray’s opinion, ‘for gnubg to reemerge as a viable alternative to XG it >> will need an enhanced user interface and well-integrated app version for >> apple & android tablets / phones, as well as upgraded neural nets.’ >> >> In my opinion, a phone version would broaden appeal / access but the most >> critical issue is the neural nets. XG feels like a very different animal as >> an opponent - noticeably more opportunistic & aggressive, so some degree of >> congruence asap seems critical for gnubg to hold ground. >> >> A final note from Chris: >> >> ‘FYI on my ToDo list is to talk to DeepMind about whether they intend to >> create an AlphaZero Backgammon.’ >> >> No update from him on this as yet. How about contacting them yourself to >> propose a gnubg / DeepMind collaboration? >> >> Alternatively (or also): >> >> In a subsequent email Chris mentioned ‘seeing an emerging group of >> highly-talented younger players, many of them Japanese.’ >> >> How about a Japanese collaboration / appeal for new coders? Language is >> clearly a barrier to this, but would it be possible to find some bilingual >> volunteers via the main gnu project to act as go-between? I don’t know how >> global the main project is, but backgammon is huge in parts of the Middle >> East so appeals here / Africa / India (where English is also more widely >> spoken) could also prove fruitful. >> >> Finally, whilst I haven’t had any specific responses from UKBGF or USBGF to >> my general inquiries, it should be possible to put out a broadcast with >> either or both of these organisations (& via them to the local club >> networks) with specific announcements or requests for feedback eg for or >> from younger players / coders interested in collaboration. You may want to >> consider this. If it’s general player feedback you want, you probably need >> to frame some very specific questions. Oystein said: ‘First we need an idea, >> then we have to verify that idea, and then we have to set it into life, >> which might trigger a bigger VM or a cluster.’ As a non-techie I get the >> gist of this (and as a description of the work process find it intriguing!) >> but I’m in the dark as to what type of ideas you mean, or what kind of >> information you want. >> >> There we are, then: my progress to date. Still happy to help, for what it’s >> worth, and I would love to be kept updated on any progress your end. >> >> All best with that, & a Happy New Year to you all – thanks once again for >> all the fine work to date. >> >> Sarah >> >> >> >> Sent from Mail >> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7C030bbcfb1ca14c26083408d7a366e372%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637157534606112734&sdata=08goovXB%2BEac8LR8M0pPtjwqQuGRPgiT3raprW%2F79cc%3D&reserved=0> >> for Windows 10 >> >> From: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 5:48:59 PM >> To: Sarah Payne <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Subject: Re: current development >> >> Yes. Just give it some thought. If you post to the mailing list or to just >> me, you can decide yourself. I'm not the most active developer at the time, >> so maybe posting to the mailing list is a good idea. >> >> -Øystein >> >> On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 6:10 PM Sarah Payne <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> Ok I’ll give this some thought. Do I reply to you or reply all? >> >> Sent from Mail >> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7C030bbcfb1ca14c26083408d7a366e372%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637157534606132750&sdata=dU%2Fp%2FUMCYQnuiTcmIDPicGsdgvbF%2BTuaKhid22%2FNxF0%3D&reserved=0> >> for Windows 10 >> >> From: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Sent: Monday, December 9, 2019 10:08:34 PM >> To: Sarah Payne <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Subject: Re: current development >> >> Hi, Sarah! >> >> Thanks for your gratitude. I think all involved developers are busy with >> other day time jobs, and GNU Backgammon is hence just a spare time project >> for us. We hence have what we need for a living through our daily jobs. >> However, as you see development has slowed down the later years. >> >> I think what we need in this project is: >> - Motivation >> - Enthusiasm >> - Cheering >> >> so, I think that you email started some sparks. You saw that! Maybe if we >> just continue to post some messages to this mailing list, maybe something >> will even happen. Keep posting suggestions and question and be positive and >> cheer up the life of the readers. That will probably be the best >> contribution back to the project. >> >> There might be occasion where some hard money can contribute and that might >> be when/if we start training something on big virtual servers, and these >> virtual servers can have some cost attached. But that is only guesswork from >> me. First we need an idea, then we have to verify that idea, and then we >> have to set it into life, which might trigger a bigger VM or a cluster. In >> that case we can discuss how to fund that. Sponsors or we chip in or we get >> voluntary gifts from backgammon enthusiast? Anyway -- It's far ahead. >> >> Maybe fresh blood among the developers might help? Do you go to a local >> backgammon club? >> Are there any computer geeks and nerds in you club? (apart from you?). The >> developers in this projects are old nerds with gray hair or no hair at all >> (like me), who learned to develop software last millennium, and maybe some >> of the code can be improved if fresh blood was added. If you are playing in >> a club, your contribution could be to go over to the young (younger than me >> and the other guys in the development team) geek in the corner and ask >> him/her if he she has seen GNU Backgammon, or knows neural network, or like >> programming, and knows the C programming language... so on.... if you get a >> developer interested that can also be your contribution back. :-) >> >> That's how it goes. And thank you so much for the spark you started. It >> means a lot. >> >> Best rolls and regards >> -Øystein >> >> On Sun, Dec 8, 2019 at 6:36 PM Sarah Payne <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> Hi Oystein >> >> Unfortunately I’m not a coder but I’ve used this software so often for no >> charge I was wondering if it’s possible to give money sometimes to the >> backgammon project to help keep it going / up to date. I’m sure I can’t be >> the only person to feel this way. You should all be very proud of this >> programme which has remained competitive for so long even without much >> recent development. In my opinion, it’s still the most user friendly set-up >> as well - v flexible & intuitive. >> >> What are the biggest hurdles to keeping it competitive? Man hours, computer >> hours? Does the neural networking approach used up until this point need to >> evolve / become more resource hungry to keep up with something like Extreme >> Gammon for example? >> >> Forgive my ignorance in this area – I’m very interested but understand very >> little of this area. And if this is not appropriate conversation for these >> lists, no problem, just let me know. >> >> Thanks – and please, yes, feel encouraged to get going again! :) >> >> Sarah >> >> >> Sent from Mail >> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7C030bbcfb1ca14c26083408d7a366e372%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637157534606142761&sdata=yt4uVTbyAHE7hgM87eGu8E5achXt2HK9HsGA5HF4H%2Bc%3D&reserved=0> >> for Windows 10 >> >> From: Øystein Schønning-Johansen <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 3, 2019 5:01:50 PM >> To: Sarah Payne <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Subject: Re: current development >> >> Hi Sarah! >> >> Thanks for taking contact. Good to hear that you like GNU Backgammon. >> Is it still under development? Hmmm... debatable. There has not been many >> major improvements the last few years. >> >> Take a look at the projects ChangeLog. >> http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/gnubg/gnubg/ChangeLog?revision=1.2654&view=markup >> >> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcvs.savannah.gnu.org%2Fviewvc%2Fgnubg%2Fgnubg%2FChangeLog%3Frevision%3D1.2654%26view%3Dmarkup&data=02%7C01%7C%7C030bbcfb1ca14c26083408d7a366e372%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637157534606152772&sdata=t3afBx7IRUtYvnyai0PH5aR3xD9jA7PMGrdAt4kXflA%3D&reserved=0> >> >> As you see there isn't much happening. >> >> Of course you can contribute if you want. After all this project is Open >> Source an anyone can do whatever changes they want. >> Just post comments here on the mailing list, and it can shear up some of the >> sleeping developers. >> >> If you are a developer and want to contribute with code, we can of course >> provide you write access to the cvs repository. (Yes, it is as old that it's >> using cvs to do code revision). >> Since everyone is more or less "sleeping", there is no real TODO list. Maybe >> some code janitor work? Refactoring? Maybe c99-ify some of the code. Maybe >> you can suggest a feature? Or report a bug? >> >> Even though I'm not doing much on GNU Backgammon (I've not done much the >> last 10 years) these days, I guess if we just chat about some details, it >> might be the spark that starts up a new motivation among us. There are some >> discussions still on this mailing list, last week there was a new Match >> Equity Table presented (Thanks Ian). If we just chat more, maybe something >> can start flowing again. I'm getting more time as my kids grow older. So, >> who knows what happens. >> >> Best regards, >> -Øystein >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:58 PM Sarah Payne <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> Hello there. Been a huge fan for many years of gnu backgammon, many thanks >> to everyone involved. Is the software still under development with new >> versions coming? Is it possible to contribute directly to this project? >> >> Thanks >> >> Sarah >> >> >> Sent from Mail >> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7C030bbcfb1ca14c26083408d7a366e372%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637157534606162783&sdata=%2BQx9rFKbtxInb6T9CxfGu11qninVo5v6DJzk4b%2FnXNE%3D&reserved=0> >> for Windows 10
