Collecting is not a use.
I think my point is being missed...
A firearm is there for a reason... to kill... you can't bake a cake with it.
For example a knife can be used to kill someone, it can also be used to cut
a piece of rope to the required length.
Can anyone give me a better use... or even a diffrent one?
-Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: George Kaytor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 3:45 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Violent education
There are many uses....
hunting,
target shooting,
collecting,
self-protection,
etc.....
-george
>From: Scott Cavanaugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: CF-Community <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: Violent education
>Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 15:03:48 -0700
>
> >>My firearms can't hurt
> >>anyone, unless I decide to use them as a tool.
>
>Interesting, but isn't there only one use for a firearm?
>
>Kind of a limited tool if you ask me.
>
>
>-Scott
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: George Kaytor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 3:03 PM
>To: CF-Community
>Subject: RE: Violent education
>
>
>Again your logic is flawed John. A gun collection CAN'T hurt anyone. Only
>PEOPLE can hurt PEOPLE.
>
>As an asided, my firearms and ammunition are stored in a 800 pound,
>fireproof safe that is bolted into my concret floor. My firearms can't hurt
>anyone, unless I decide to use them as a tool. There are many tools that
>can
>
>be used for violence and are used for violence. Just review the Oklohoma
>bombing. No guns there.... If a psycho wants to hurt somebody, somebody is
>going to get hurt period.
>
>Every law that is passed takes one less right away from us. Let's not
>forget
>
>that it is freedom that makes this country great. Stalin and Hitler
>believed
>
>in control....
>
>-george
>
>
> >From: "John Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: CF-Community <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: RE: Violent education
> >Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 14:14:23 -0700
> >
> >The only thing I can say in regards to that is, my baseball card
>collection
> >can't kill, my stamp collection and comic book collections can't either.
> >Unless I were to tie some one down and slash at them for a very long
>time,
> >longer than I probably have the energy for. However your gun collection
> >could easily be turned to violence on a whim.
> >
> >Sadly it's everyone's business what you collect when it turns on us. If
>you
> >have children then your gun collection has a chance of doing harm, if you
> >get fired and feel wronged, then your gun collection has a chance to do
> >harm, If you're just having a really crappy day and don't know how to
>vent
> >your anger, then your gun collection has a chance to do harm. If it meant
> >giving up something I collect in order to help affect political and
> >societal
> >change, I'd be a no comic book, no stamp, no baseball card having
> >individual
> >(I actually don't collect any of those things, I don't really collect
> >anything, I'm kinda boring LOL).
> >
> >We talk about responsibility, then maybe we should be responsible enough
>to
> >understand that guns aren't a symptom, guns are part of the problem, and
> >when we see that then maybe we'll be that much closer to a solution. The
> >gun
> >toting "collectors" and People "protecting" themselves would rather, it
> >seems blame society as a whole, video games, poor old Marylyn Manson and
> >pretty much anybody else rather than look at themselves and think, "I'd
> >never kill a sole, but what about my wife, kids? family that might visit?
> >some one who might break in and steal my gun?" But then as long as you're
> >not pulling the trigger it's really not your fault or responsibility.
> >
> >If you look at the columbine kids or the one in Santee and elsewhere many
> >of
> >there parents and classmates would say, "He was so quite, not a violent
> >bone
> >in his body." I'd hardly say that is a propensity for violence, I'd say
> >that's rage that is out of control and a gun in the house is a very easy
> >answer to that rage.
> >
> >Just think, all this lively conversation has gotten all of our blood
> >pumping
> >and we're completely energized. :-)
> >
> >J.
> >
> >John Wilker
> >Web Applications Consultant
> >Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer
> >
> >www.red-omega.com <http://www.red-omega.com>
> >
> >"Pessimism - Every dark cloud has a silver lining, but lightning kills
> >hundreds of people each year who are trying to find it." ~despair.com
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Mark Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 1:24 PM
> >To: CF-Community
> >Subject: RE: Violent education
> >
> >
> >John - The reason I own so many guns is the same reason all those sports
> >cards collectors have so many cards - because they can or because they
>like
> >to collect that certain thing. Now, I know you're saying, "but Mark,
> >trading
> >cards don't kill people". Well John, neither do guns my friend. Has it
>sunk
> >in yet? It's nobodies business why I own so many guns. Just like it's
>none
> >of my business why people collect anything I don't particularly care
>about
> >or more pointedly, don't understand. What almost everybody is saying here
> >is
> >that we HAVE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR ACTIONS! Blaming all our problems
>on
> >guns is being a complete passifist and near-sighted. That is, you're not
> >looking at the deeper rooted issues with this country and violence.
> >
> >Saying that some kid won't commit acts of violence because he doesn't
>have
> >access to a gun is ridiculous. If a kid has a propensity for violence,
> >guess
> >what? He's going to commit violence. Which would you rather have - a
> >society
> >that takes care of itself, has respect for others, takes responsibility
>for
> >their actions? Or a government controlled fascist (a.k.a Mussolini,
>Hitler)
> >type society where you have to ask permission to take a dump?
> >
> >I know it's easier said than done, but it's not like this country has
>never
> >had values before. It wasn't too long ago when the majority of people
> >respected life and respected each other. We live in a society now where
>men
> >don't have respect for women, we care too much about material things. We
> >dump our kids off at some building and let others take care of them.
>We've
> >lost site of what "family" really means. I remember my family sitting
>down
> >for breakfast and dinner every day. I'm sure that a lot of families still
> >do
> >that, but the numbers are dwindling.
> >
> >God, I knew when I saw this topic this morning that I wouldn't get any
>work
> >done... Sorry, I'm just very perfervid about this topic.
> >
> >Mark Stewart
> >Programmer/Analyst
> >Communication Concepts
> >215.672.6900 x1332
> >
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/07/01 03:26PM >>>
> >I completely agree, no amount of laws will ever completely end anything,
> >because you're right. Where there is demand supply will be available.
> >However if guns weren't so easy to get a hold of you have to admit that
> >many
> >would not commit acts of violence. If a kids gets beat up by a bully and
> >has
> >the ability to run upstairs and grab a gun and put it in his back pack,
> >he's
> >more likely to do it, than if he had no access to a gun in the house and
> >would have to figure out how to get one. Chances are he'd cool off and
> >think
> >about it.
> >
> >I can't even imagine what logic dictates to own several guns. Ok if I
>take
> >into account that there are accounts of people defending themselves with
>a
> >fire arm, why more than one? In case you are being attacked by several
> >assailants? In case you need to arm the wife and kids?
> >
> >People who are for guns seem to always have many guns. and a lot seem to
> >have no need for them. I live in a particularly crappy area, I hear gun
> >shots at night at least once a month or more, I feel in no way compelled
>to
> >arm myself.
> >
> >The argument that our country was founded on guns and our ability to
>defend
> >ourselves is moot. When the constitution was written our army was small
>and
> >mostly militia. Of course they needed to be armed. However our country
>was
> >also founded on slavery, and yet somehow we saw fit to abolish that. So
>we
> >can't argue that was good back in 1776 is still good and applies today.
> >
> >Today needs to be judged by today, and today we have a nation of people
> >armed to the teeth simply because they can be. And unless evidence is
>made
> >available that the number of innocent people killed by family guns is
>much
> >smaller than the number of people saved by a family gun, I'll choose to
> >stay
> >un armed.
> >
> >J.
> >
> >John Wilker
> >Web Applications Consultant
> >Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer
> >
> >www.red-omega.com <http://www.red-omega.com>
> >
> >"Pessimism - Every dark cloud has a silver lining, but lightning kills
> >hundreds of people each year who are trying to find it." ~despair.com
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: George Kaytor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 11:49 AM
> >To: CF-Community
> >Subject: RE: Violent education
> >
> >
> >"All guns kill" - Nope, I own several guns and they have never killed
> >anything. (I don't hunt, only target shoot) My dog did kill a frog once
> >though......
> >
> >"However we aren't talking about criminals" - The second those psycho
>kids
> >started planning their assault on the school, they became criminals. Are
> >you
> >really naive to think if their parents didn't own guns they could not
>have
> >gotten them?
> >
> >Also, there are plenty of stories of people successfully defending
> >themselves with firearms. The media chooses to downplay them though.
> >
> >Here's more food for thought.... Washington DC has the strongest gun
> >control
> >laws in the country? They also have one of the highest crime rates. Make
> >your own conclusions....
> >
> >-george
> >
> >
> > >From: "John Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >To: CF-Community <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Subject: RE: Violent education
> > >Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 11:09:43 -0700
> > >
> > >I completely agree that gun control will have little effect on the
> > >criminals
> > >out there. However we aren't talking about the criminals. We're talking
> > >about kids going out and shooting their classmates in cold blood with
>the
> > >parents weapons. Gun control would come very close to solving that
> >problem.
> > >If you look at all these school shooting cases I don't recall any of
>the
> > >kids coming from the homes of known criminals. They come from the homes
> >of
> > >the people who feel a gun will offer them protection from criminals.
> > >
> > >"I think everyone for gun control should put
> > >a big sign in their yard (We have no firearms in this household). This
> > >would
> > >serve as a great invite to burglars."
> > >
> > >I'll put a sign in my yard that says I have no gun. How many people who
> >own
> > >guns "for protection" have had to protect themselves? If some one
>kicked
> >in
> > >your door would you have either the time or inclination to run for your
> > >gun?
> > >Houses are usually robbed when empty and when they're not it's a home
> > >invasion scenario in which case, many are killed with the guns they
> >bought
> > >to protect themselves.
> > >
> > >"So .. if I have guns and the kid down the street has guns and he kills
>a
> > >bunch of people and I don't, what's the difference? It's not the guns.
> > >I'll say its 50% nature and 50% nurture ... that's what it *really*
>boils
> > >down to."
> > >
> > >The difference is, that if neither household had a gun in it, the kids
> > >would
> > >be alive and your chances of being robbed would be no greater.
> > >
> > >Do any of us really think that criminals know where the houses with
>guns
> > >are? Owning a gun is no more a deterrent than being an off duty police
> > >office asleep in your bed, a crook isn't gonna know that going in.
> > >
> > >"The next problem with your logic is where do you draw the line? Drug
> > >dealers
> > >train attack dogs to protect their 'crack houses'. When the police bust
> >in,
> > >these dogs attack the police buying their owners time to either attempt
> > >escape or destroy evidence. Do we ban owning dogs?"
> > >
> > >That's a slippery slope that can't be answered. By that logic we should
> >out
> > >law doors, since they impeded a cops entering of a house. That's not
> >really
> > >a strong argument. But to address dogs, not all dogs kill, some do some
> > >don't. All guns kill. People or animals, guns have no other purpose
>than
> >to
> > >end life.
> > >
> > >J.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >John Wilker
> > >Web Applications Consultant
> > >Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer
> > >
> > >www.red-omega.com <http://www.red-omega.com>
> > >
> > >"Pessimism - Every dark cloud has a silver lining, but lightning kills
> > >hundreds of people each year who are trying to find it." ~despair.com
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Todd Ashworth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > >Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 10:30 AM
> > >To: CF-Community
> > >Subject: Re: Violent education
> > >
> > >
> > >| If we had strict gun control then who would we need to protect
> >ourselves
> > >| from? If the criminals couldn't get guns then people wouldn't think
> >they
> > >| needed them in their houses.
> > >
> > >I hate to disagree, but strict gun control isn't going to do much to
>keep
> > >the guns out of the hands of people. Drugs are actually illegal, yet
> >kids
> > >these days have better access to drugs in schools than they do guns.
>Gun
> > >control might help, but it won't solve anything in the long run. Don't
> >get
> > >me wrong .. I'm no fan of the NRA, but I don't believe in gun control
>for
> > >the sake of preventing violence alone. It just isn't going to work.
> > >
> > >Growing up, I played violent video games, watched violent shows on TV,
> >had
> > >toy guns, played war with my buddies and all of that. I also had
>access
> >to
> > >guns and even personaly owned a few. I had my share of run-ins with
> > >bullies
> > >in highschool, but I *never* felt compelled to take a gun to school and
> > >blow
> > >some people away for the hell of it.
> > >
> > >So .. if I have guns and the kid down the street has guns and he kills
>a
> > >bunch of people and I don't, what's the difference? It's not the guns.
> > >I'll say its 50% nature and 50% nurture ... that's what it *really*
>boils
> > >down to.
> > >
> > >Todd
> > >
> >
>
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