You can start a race with it.
At 04:36 PM 5/7/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Collecting is not a use.
>
>I think my point is being missed...
>
>A firearm is there for a reason... to kill... you can't bake a cake with it.
>For example a knife can be used to kill someone, it can also be used to cut
>a piece of rope to the required length.
>
>Can anyone give me a better use... or even a diffrent one?
>
>-Scott
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: George Kaytor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 3:45 PM
>To: CF-Community
>Subject: RE: Violent education
>
>
>There are many uses....
>
>hunting,
>target shooting,
>collecting,
>self-protection,
>etc.....
>
>-george
>
>
> >From: Scott Cavanaugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: CF-Community <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: RE: Violent education
> >Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 15:03:48 -0700
> >
> > >>My firearms can't hurt
> > >>anyone, unless I decide to use them as a tool.
> >
> >Interesting, but isn't there only one use for a firearm?
> >
> >Kind of a limited tool if you ask me.
> >
> >
> >-Scott
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: George Kaytor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 3:03 PM
> >To: CF-Community
> >Subject: RE: Violent education
> >
> >
> >Again your logic is flawed John. A gun collection CAN'T hurt anyone. Only
> >PEOPLE can hurt PEOPLE.
> >
> >As an asided, my firearms and ammunition are stored in a 800 pound,
> >fireproof safe that is bolted into my concret floor. My firearms can't hurt
> >anyone, unless I decide to use them as a tool. There are many tools that
> >can
> >
> >be used for violence and are used for violence. Just review the Oklohoma
> >bombing. No guns there.... If a psycho wants to hurt somebody, somebody is
> >going to get hurt period.
> >
> >Every law that is passed takes one less right away from us. Let's not
> >forget
> >
> >that it is freedom that makes this country great. Stalin and Hitler
> >believed
> >
> >in control....
> >
> >-george
> >
> >
> > >From: "John Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >To: CF-Community <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Subject: RE: Violent education
> > >Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 14:14:23 -0700
> > >
> > >The only thing I can say in regards to that is, my baseball card
> >collection
> > >can't kill, my stamp collection and comic book collections can't either.
> > >Unless I were to tie some one down and slash at them for a very long
> >time,
> > >longer than I probably have the energy for. However your gun collection
> > >could easily be turned to violence on a whim.
> > >
> > >Sadly it's everyone's business what you collect when it turns on us. If
> >you
> > >have children then your gun collection has a chance of doing harm, if you
> > >get fired and feel wronged, then your gun collection has a chance to do
> > >harm, If you're just having a really crappy day and don't know how to
> >vent
> > >your anger, then your gun collection has a chance to do harm. If it meant
> > >giving up something I collect in order to help affect political and
> > >societal
> > >change, I'd be a no comic book, no stamp, no baseball card having
> > >individual
> > >(I actually don't collect any of those things, I don't really collect
> > >anything, I'm kinda boring LOL).
> > >
> > >We talk about responsibility, then maybe we should be responsible enough
> >to
> > >understand that guns aren't a symptom, guns are part of the problem, and
> > >when we see that then maybe we'll be that much closer to a solution. The
> > >gun
> > >toting "collectors" and People "protecting" themselves would rather, it
> > >seems blame society as a whole, video games, poor old Marylyn Manson and
> > >pretty much anybody else rather than look at themselves and think, "I'd
> > >never kill a sole, but what about my wife, kids? family that might visit?
> > >some one who might break in and steal my gun?" But then as long as you're
> > >not pulling the trigger it's really not your fault or responsibility.
> > >
> > >If you look at the columbine kids or the one in Santee and elsewhere many
> > >of
> > >there parents and classmates would say, "He was so quite, not a violent
> > >bone
> > >in his body." I'd hardly say that is a propensity for violence, I'd say
> > >that's rage that is out of control and a gun in the house is a very easy
> > >answer to that rage.
> > >
> > >Just think, all this lively conversation has gotten all of our blood
> > >pumping
> > >and we're completely energized. :-)
> > >
> > >J.
> > >
> > >John Wilker
> > >Web Applications Consultant
> > >Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer
> > >
> > >www.red-omega.com <http://www.red-omega.com>
> > >
> > >"Pessimism - Every dark cloud has a silver lining, but lightning kills
> > >hundreds of people each year who are trying to find it." ~despair.com
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Mark Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > >Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 1:24 PM
> > >To: CF-Community
> > >Subject: RE: Violent education
> > >
> > >
> > >John - The reason I own so many guns is the same reason all those sports
> > >cards collectors have so many cards - because they can or because they
> >like
> > >to collect that certain thing. Now, I know you're saying, "but Mark,
> > >trading
> > >cards don't kill people". Well John, neither do guns my friend. Has it
> >sunk
> > >in yet? It's nobodies business why I own so many guns. Just like it's
> >none
> > >of my business why people collect anything I don't particularly care
> >about
> > >or more pointedly, don't understand. What almost everybody is saying here
> > >is
> > >that we HAVE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR ACTIONS! Blaming all our problems
> >on
> > >guns is being a complete passifist and near-sighted. That is, you're not
> > >looking at the deeper rooted issues with this country and violence.
> > >
> > >Saying that some kid won't commit acts of violence because he doesn't
> >have
> > >access to a gun is ridiculous. If a kid has a propensity for violence,
> > >guess
> > >what? He's going to commit violence. Which would you rather have - a
> > >society
> > >that takes care of itself, has respect for others, takes responsibility
> >for
> > >their actions? Or a government controlled fascist (a.k.a Mussolini,
> >Hitler)
> > >type society where you have to ask permission to take a dump?
> > >
> > >I know it's easier said than done, but it's not like this country has
> >never
> > >had values before. It wasn't too long ago when the majority of people
> > >respected life and respected each other. We live in a society now where
> >men
> > >don't have respect for women, we care too much about material things. We
> > >dump our kids off at some building and let others take care of them.
> >We've
> > >lost site of what "family" really means. I remember my family sitting
> >down
> > >for breakfast and dinner every day. I'm sure that a lot of families still
> > >do
> > >that, but the numbers are dwindling.
> > >
> > >God, I knew when I saw this topic this morning that I wouldn't get any
> >work
> > >done... Sorry, I'm just very perfervid about this topic.
> > >
> > >Mark Stewart
> > >Programmer/Analyst
> > >Communication Concepts
> > >215.672.6900 x1332
> > >
> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/07/01 03:26PM >>>
> > >I completely agree, no amount of laws will ever completely end anything,
> > >because you're right. Where there is demand supply will be available.
> > >However if guns weren't so easy to get a hold of you have to admit that
> > >many
> > >would not commit acts of violence. If a kids gets beat up by a bully and
> > >has
> > >the ability to run upstairs and grab a gun and put it in his back pack,
> > >he's
> > >more likely to do it, than if he had no access to a gun in the house and
> > >would have to figure out how to get one. Chances are he'd cool off and
> > >think
> > >about it.
> > >
> > >I can't even imagine what logic dictates to own several guns. Ok if I
> >take
> > >into account that there are accounts of people defending themselves with
> >a
> > >fire arm, why more than one? In case you are being attacked by several
> > >assailants? In case you need to arm the wife and kids?
> > >
> > >People who are for guns seem to always have many guns. and a lot seem to
> > >have no need for them. I live in a particularly crappy area, I hear gun
> > >shots at night at least once a month or more, I feel in no way compelled
> >to
> > >arm myself.
> > >
> > >The argument that our country was founded on guns and our ability to
> >defend
> > >ourselves is moot. When the constitution was written our army was small
> >and
> > >mostly militia. Of course they needed to be armed. However our country
> >was
> > >also founded on slavery, and yet somehow we saw fit to abolish that. So
> >we
> > >can't argue that was good back in 1776 is still good and applies today.
> > >
> > >Today needs to be judged by today, and today we have a nation of people
> > >armed to the teeth simply because they can be. And unless evidence is
> >made
> > >available that the number of innocent people killed by family guns is
> >much
> > >smaller than the number of people saved by a family gun, I'll choose to
> > >stay
> > >un armed.
> > >
> > >J.
> > >
> > >John Wilker
> > >Web Applications Consultant
> > >Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer
> > >
> > >www.red-omega.com <http://www.red-omega.com>
> > >
> > >"Pessimism - Every dark cloud has a silver lining, but lightning kills
> > >hundreds of people each year who are trying to find it." ~despair.com
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: George Kaytor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > >Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 11:49 AM
> > >To: CF-Community
> > >Subject: RE: Violent education
> > >
> > >
> > >"All guns kill" - Nope, I own several guns and they have never killed
> > >anything. (I don't hunt, only target shoot) My dog did kill a frog once
> > >though......
> > >
> > >"However we aren't talking about criminals" - The second those psycho
> >kids
> > >started planning their assault on the school, they became criminals. Are
> > >you
> > >really naive to think if their parents didn't own guns they could not
> >have
> > >gotten them?
> > >
> > >Also, there are plenty of stories of people successfully defending
> > >themselves with firearms. The media chooses to downplay them though.
> > >
> > >Here's more food for thought.... Washington DC has the strongest gun
> > >control
> > >laws in the country? They also have one of the highest crime rates. Make
> > >your own conclusions....
> > >
> > >-george
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "John Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >To: CF-Community <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >Subject: RE: Violent education
> > > >Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 11:09:43 -0700
> > > >
> > > >I completely agree that gun control will have little effect on the
> > > >criminals
> > > >out there. However we aren't talking about the criminals. We're talking
> > > >about kids going out and shooting their classmates in cold blood with
> >the
> > > >parents weapons. Gun control would come very close to solving that
> > >problem.
> > > >If you look at all these school shooting cases I don't recall any of
> >the
> > > >kids coming from the homes of known criminals. They come from the homes
> > >of
> > > >the people who feel a gun will offer them protection from criminals.
> > > >
> > > >"I think everyone for gun control should put
> > > >a big sign in their yard (We have no firearms in this household). This
> > > >would
> > > >serve as a great invite to burglars."
> > > >
> > > >I'll put a sign in my yard that says I have no gun. How many people who
> > >own
> > > >guns "for protection" have had to protect themselves? If some one
> >kicked
> > >in
> > > >your door would you have either the time or inclination to run for your
> > > >gun?
> > > >Houses are usually robbed when empty and when they're not it's a home
> > > >invasion scenario in which case, many are killed with the guns they
> > >bought
> > > >to protect themselves.
> > > >
> > > >"So .. if I have guns and the kid down the street has guns and he kills
>
> >a
> > > >bunch of people and I don't, what's the difference? It's not the guns.
> > > >I'll say its 50% nature and 50% nurture ... that's what it *really*
> >boils
> > > >down to."
> > > >
> > > >The difference is, that if neither household had a gun in it, the kids
> > > >would
> > > >be alive and your chances of being robbed would be no greater.
> > > >
> > > >Do any of us really think that criminals know where the houses with
> >guns
> > > >are? Owning a gun is no more a deterrent than being an off duty police
> > > >office asleep in your bed, a crook isn't gonna know that going in.
> > > >
> > > >"The next problem with your logic is where do you draw the line? Drug
> > > >dealers
> > > >train attack dogs to protect their 'crack houses'. When the police bust
> > >in,
> > > >these dogs attack the police buying their owners time to either attempt
> > > >escape or destroy evidence. Do we ban owning dogs?"
> > > >
> > > >That's a slippery slope that can't be answered. By that logic we should
> > >out
> > > >law doors, since they impeded a cops entering of a house. That's not
> > >really
> > > >a strong argument. But to address dogs, not all dogs kill, some do some
> > > >don't. All guns kill. People or animals, guns have no other purpose
> >than
> > >to
> > > >end life.
> > > >
> > > >J.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >John Wilker
> > > >Web Applications Consultant
> > > >Macromedia Certified ColdFusion Developer
> > > >
> > > >www.red-omega.com <http://www.red-omega.com>
> > > >
> > > >"Pessimism - Every dark cloud has a silver lining, but lightning kills
> > > >hundreds of people each year who are trying to find it." ~despair.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: Todd Ashworth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > >Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 10:30 AM
> > > >To: CF-Community
> > > >Subject: Re: Violent education
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >| If we had strict gun control then who would we need to protect
> > >ourselves
> > > >| from? If the criminals couldn't get guns then people wouldn't think
> > >they
> > > >| needed them in their houses.
> > > >
> > > >I hate to disagree, but strict gun control isn't going to do much to
> >keep
> > > >the guns out of the hands of people. Drugs are actually illegal, yet
> > >kids
> > > >these days have better access to drugs in schools than they do guns.
> >Gun
> > > >control might help, but it won't solve anything in the long run. Don't
> > >get
> > > >me wrong .. I'm no fan of the NRA, but I don't believe in gun control
> >for
> > > >the sake of preventing violence alone. It just isn't going to work.
> > > >
> > > >Growing up, I played violent video games, watched violent shows on TV,
> > >had
> > > >toy guns, played war with my buddies and all of that. I also had
> >access
> > >to
> > > >guns and even personaly owned a few. I had my share of run-ins with
> > > >bullies
> > > >in highschool, but I *never* felt compelled to take a gun to school and
> > > >blow
> > > >some people away for the hell of it.
> > > >
> > > >So .. if I have guns and the kid down the street has guns and he kills
> >a
> > > >bunch of people and I don't, what's the difference? It's not the guns.
> > > >I'll say its 50% nature and 50% nurture ... that's what it *really*
> >boils
> > > >down to.
> > > >
> > > >Todd
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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