> -----Original Message----- > From: Fleischer, Beth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 11:14 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > Howard has hit it on the head here: > > According to YOU gary, anyone who believes that the US has a right to > military action in Afghanistan is a war monger who wants to kill all of > the > afghan people, particularly the women and children.
Where in the hell did you get that. You watch too much O'Reilly Factor. A nd where did I call anyone a war monger? Where did I call anyone a neo-Nazi or boob-tube zombie? > > Its YOU who sees this in black and white, not us. I personally resent > being > called a war monger - it makes me very angry. I think it makes other > people > here angry as well. What, and you don't make me angry? Well, actually, you don't, but I had t o say that. Oh, I get it, I don't agree with you're views so I should go aw ay. Maybe to another country? Please. -Gary > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:08 PM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > Gary, first off, I didn't attack anybody and I don't appreciate being > > generalized in with these others you lump me in with. > > > > I agree that many, many people do what you say -- you don't agree > with XYZ > > so you must be anti-American. I've had the same thing done to > myself. > > But > > I wasn't calling anybody anti-American. And if you read my posts in > this > > series carefully, you'll see I made it clear what I was saying. > > > > Boiling down is a bit of a cliché, but it's a valid intellectual > argument. > > All propositions, if valid, can be "boiled down" to basic, > understandable > > terms. Sometimes, only when we strip away a lot of verbiage do we > even > > understand what we ourselves are saying. I was hoping to point out to > a > > particular individual that maybe what he was saying wasn't really > what he > > intended, or if it was what he intended, it wasn't very savory. > > > > On the flip side, I also see a lot of -- and I feel like I'm getting > this > > from you and Benjamin -- if you don't agree with me, you are either a > > boob-tube zombie or a neo-Nazi. > > > > It's very easy to label people. It means you don't need to examine > their > > position for any possible validity. For example, those who call you > > anti-American because you don't support (supposedly) military > tribunals, > > give you an excuse not to examine any arguments in favor of military > > tribunals (and they are numerous; if it wasn't so late I would list > them > > now -- maybe tomorrow evening). > > > > I am also bothered by your statement: "What has the War In > Afghanistan > > (America's Next War, ad infinitum)... done so far? We really don't > know. > > Sure, there are some women without birquas(sp) on. And some men have > > shaved > > beards. But have we actually stopped terrorism > > at all?" > > > > What do you expect? Terrorism to be wiped out in two months? Really? > > Honestly? > > > > We have made tremendous progress in a very short amount of time in > > Afghanistan. The war has advanced faster than I ever imagine, even > in > > factoring in our military superiority. > > > > Haven't you been listening -- this "war" will take years. It's only > > logical > > that it would. > > > > Almost certainly, America will be attacked again. So why be > surprised at > > suicide bombers in Israel. Hell, we have hardly even focused much > > attention > > on that problem yet. > > > > I mean, just what are your expectations? > > > > H. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Gary P. McNeel, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:37 PM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > Whether Howard meant to do this intentionally or not, this is a > common > > tool > > in American media (on both sides), maybe in others. "Boiling it down" > can > > oversimplify complex issues and make them seem out of context. Watch > Bill > > O'Reilly, he is a master at this. It is a common tool. We are > increasingly > > being taught to NOT be skeptical of our leaders and their agendas or > to be > > afraid to question their actions for fear of a personal attack. > > > > I have been attacked in here for my same views. This type of attack > was > > used > > by McCarthy and Reagan. "If you don't agree with us, you must not be > with > > us > > and you must agree with the other side." It is happening in the news > and > > in > > politics everyday in America. It happens in this group. Don't > support the > > war? You must be anti-American (re: Beth saying I should leave > America > > because I exercise the very rights I and others have served in the > armed > > forces to protect). Think maybe the way America has exploited other > > countries and pissed some people off? You must be un-American. Think > the > > Attorney General is a right-wing, neo-Nazi sympathizer (see his past > > writings and remarks)? Think these new tribunals and anti-terror > > legislation > > are knee-jerk? You must be anti-American. "Get with the program > soldier" > > ("FMJ"). Who's side are you on? Etc. Etc. No real effort is made to > > understand the other side of the argument, just attack the arguer (ad > > hominem). > > > > What has the War In Afghanistan (America's Next War, ad infinitum)... > done > > so far? We really don't know. Sure, there are some women without > > birquas(sp) > > on. And some men have shaved beards. But have we actually stopped > > terrorism > > at all? Have we helped unleash a civil war? Laid the ground for one? > After > > the attacks in Israel, I would say no. In a year or two, when the > > political > > capital of Afghanistan has been spent and we realize what the war is > > costing, people will go back to watching "news" of OJ or endless talk > > about > > some other trivial subject (Condit comes to mind or sports). I think > there > > are more sports channels than "news" channels. Feed the distractions. > > Opium > > for the masses. Cheap to make and people will pay a fortune for it. > > > > BTW - I have heard zero on the news about the cost, and I am talking > the > > nightly or daily news, not some obscure web source I have to track > down, I > > am talking what most Americans will see. > > > > Anyway, I am tired. Good night. > > > > -Gary > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 1:04 AM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > Why do you feel the need to "boil down" my statements? I don't > > > doubt it was > > > an honest attempt on your part, but why is it nessasary? In your > case it > > > seems your 'honest' attempt at boiling down my statements was > intended > > for > > > your then to manipulate my statements to gain support from other > > > members on > > > this board and discredit my original intentions. In short, to put > words > > in > > > my mouth. Nothing in my posts are indicated my agreeing/condoning > the > > > taliban, yet you sarcasically impied this with your post along > > > with labeling > > > my words "liberal mantra". > > > > > > I see a distinct difference between news and truth or 'reality'. > > > If you take > > > one of my previous metaphors, truth (the ingrediant) is sugar, but > coke > > > (corporate news) is not sugar, it may be based on sugar, but there > is > > > nothing natural or real about it. It's a consumable commodity. > > > > > > This is my objection put simply. I do condone the sterotyping of > > > Palastinians into "American hating terrorists" by people who use > > > the 'street > > > celebration' footage as an example. This is a gross generalisation > > > equivelent to called all americans "fat fast food addicted ignorant > > > war-loving facists". Neither of these two description are fair and > > > demonstrate radical ignorance. The corporate news is in part > > > responsible for > > > this ignorance. This is my objection. > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:52 PM > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > It appears that you want to turn an honest attempt to boil down > your > > > > statements to their most basic terms (and give you a chance to > > respond > > > and > > > > correct any misunderstanding) as an attack. I wasn't attacking > > > you. I was > > > > attacking the idea that we shouldn't draw conclusion when > > > presented with, > > > > what even you described as factual, news accounts. > > > > > > > > I see you trying to play both sides of the fence -- the news is > > biased, > > > but > > > > it's factual. > > > > > > > > You can't have it both ways. > > > > > > > > As a journalist, I also take offense at your narrow-sighted, > > uninformed > > > view > > > > of how a news operation works. It's the old thing -- people who > don't > > > like > > > > to hear the truth blame the messenger. And then deride any one > who > > says, > > > > "Hey, maybe it's not the messenger's fault." It's a very > convenient > > > position > > > > to be in -- you can cast aspersions all around without ever being > in a > > > > position to honestly face your own biases. > > > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:28 PM > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > You read into my words through your own stereotypical view of > > > non-mainstream > > > > thinking... > > > > > > > > My original post concerned the discussion surrounding the so > called > > > > 'celebrating Palastinians'. My critisism was limited to a > discussion > > > > concerning oppinions on this footage. Having said that, I don't > > welcome > > > you > > > > putting words in my mouth concerning my position on the Taliban > > > and their > > > > oppressive regime. > > > > > > > > You've attempted to discredit my criticism of corporate owned > media by > > > > insinuating that I support the Taliban because I mistrust the > news. > > Your > > > > conclusions are weak. You can label my words as "liberal mantra" > if > > you > > > > wish, but in my oppinion this does your position no credit as it > > implies > > > > you're more interested in labels and stereotypes then a > > > discussion of any > > > > real depth. > > > > > > > > Keep watching television Howard. It appears to do you a lot of > good. > > > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:17 PM > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to misstate what you're saying, but let me boil > down > > for > > > you > > > > > what I hear you saying: > > > > > > > > > > 1) The news may be factually correct, though the nuance may be > off > > > because > > > > > of entertainment values -- therefore, the "real" news is some > how > > > > obscured. > > > > > > > > > > 2) Because the "news" has been remanufactured to a degree, > > > and no longer > > > > > reflects the raw, unvarnished truth, it is offensive to base > any > > > > conclusions > > > > > this "newstainment." > > > > > > > > > > Am I understanding you correctly? > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, we should not condemn the Taliban for beating, > stoning > > and > > > > > murdering women because, by golly, we learned about it on a > > > network news > > > > > show. And it was edited. And who knows what was left out. A > Taliban > > > denial > > > > > maybe? Or possibly a Taliban apology ("We didn't mean to stone > those > > > women > > > > > to death -- the rock just slipped. Sorry.") > > > > > > > > > > Is that really what you're saying. I mean, because that's what > I > > hear > > > you > > > > > saying. And I find it pretty offensive. > > > > > > > > > > If the facts are correct, it matters little how they are > > > delivered. And > > > no > > > > > amount of political correctness (in this case, the liberal > > > mantra of we > > > > > shouldn't criticize other "cultures") can possibly justify what > the > > > > Taliban > > > > > has done to women and dissenters within Afghanistan. > > > > > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:18 PM > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Beth, > > > > > > > > > > I'm not certain how you arrived at such an exaggerated > > > understanding of > > > my > > > > > original post. But allow me at least the oppertunity to expand > my > > > > perspetive > > > > > before you sarcastically attack my posts once more, even though > the > > > > original > > > > > post was not even address to you. > > > > > > > > > > I may have refered to television (and this can be broadened to > any > > > > > corporately own/operated news service) as manufactured, but I > > > did not in > > > > any > > > > > way insinuate that the 'stories' were myth. News services > (mostly) > > > deliver > > > > > their content in a highly constructed way. News is like coka > > > cola; coke > > > is > > > > > based on sugar, a 'real world' ingredient, just as the > "oppression > > of > > > > > afghanistan women" may too be 'real world', but the end > > > result delivered > > > > by > > > > > the news services is nothing 'natural'... it is a manufacured > > > construct > > > > > intentionally mixed to produce the desired effect. This is how > I > > view > > > > > corporate news services. Most of what is aired looks no > > > different from, > > > > and > > > > > indeed reflects the kind of news approach highlighted by the > > nineties > > > film > > > > > "Wag the Dog". > > > > > > > > > > Images are carefully selected, edited and cut with emotive > music and > > > > > commentry designed to promote a certain perspective. Exactly > whose > > > > > perspective/interests/politics represented are beyond the > > > reach of this > > > > > discussion, but the net effect of these kinds of presentations > are > > not > > > at > > > > > all dissimilar to those effects achieved by the entertainment > > industry > > > as > > > > a > > > > > whole. > > > > > > > > > > News is entertainment/entertainment is news. I find making > > judgements > > > upon > > > > > other peoples/cultures etc based on this kind of information > > > offensive. > > > > > > > > > > I recall a previous post by Gary that brought up the lack on > true > > > > > investigative reporting in the main stream news. My oppinion > > > on the news > > > > is > > > > > an extension of this logic. > > > > > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Fleischer, Beth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:12 PM > > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Folks!! > > > > > > > > > > > > did you hear it! The oppression of afghanistan women is a > > > myth, made > > > up > > > > > by > > > > > > the media. > > > > > > > > > > > > Benjamin, I heard about the plight of afghani women several > > > years ago > > > > when > > > > > > an afghan woman came to speak at a university. Did she make > it up > > > too? > > > > > was > > > > > > she in on the big media conspiracy? Were the stories she > told of > > > women > > > > > > being killed for walking down the street with a man whom > > > they weren't > > > > > > married to made up too? Were the stories of female lawyers > > > and doctors > > > > > made > > > > > > up too? And she left afghanistan not because she was no > longer > > > > allowed > > > > > to > > > > > > practice law there, but just to spread these lies about the > > > wonderful > > > > > > taliban rule? All those underground schools to teach girls > dont' > > > exist > > > > > > right - because under the taliban rule girls WERE allowed to > go to > > > > school? > > > > > > And all this information I received prior to 9/11 - it was > > > made up for > > > > > WHAT > > > > > > REASON? > > > > > > > > > > > > so, all the people in afghanistan listening to music again, > > shaving > > > > their > > > > > > beards, taking off their masks, they weren't really > > > oppressed its just > > > a > > > > > > media invention, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The western media is at best, extrodinatily limited in it's > > > > > representation > > > > > > > of 'real people' in the middle east (or media east as it's > > exists > > > for > > > > > us). > > > > > > > Furthermore, it's representation is more often designed to > > promote > > > > this > > > > > > > kind > > > > > > > of discussion by manufacture of 'stories' (one of these > being > > the > > > > > > > celebrating Palistinians, another being the oppression of > women > > in > > > > > > > Aphganistan for example). These stories are the developed > and > > made > > > > self > > > > > > > referencial, repeated over and over by all media outlets > > > until they > > > > > become > > > > > > > the measure of oppinion polls on presidencial popularity. > There > > > > simplify > > > > > > > polarize and synthasize politics and culture for the fast > food > > > culture > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > is America. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:18 AM > > > > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. There were a LOT more than 1 woman and 5 kids. There > were > > PA > > > > police > > > > > > > > taking camera's away from reporters to avoid the news > from it. > > > There > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > letters of protest from the AP and Reuters over it. I > > > know people > > > > who > > > > > > > live > > > > > > > > in Israel and have first hand reports as do many others. > > > > > > > > 2. The rumor that it was old footage was debunked. It > > > started with > > > a > > > > > > > > student in Argentina and spread. It was real footage. > > > > > > > > 3. I don't condemn any Palestinian for the actions of > some > > truly > > > > sick > > > > > > > > people who take pride and happiness in the suffering of > > others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >As or your second quesion... > > > > > > > > >First, that clip of a women dancing and five kids > > > > > > > > >clapping there hands, I wouldnt realy know how that is > > > > > > > > >considred 'my people', last time i checked, the > > > > > > > > >Palestinian population was not reprented by a women > > > > > > > > >and 5 kids, and yes, a car passing by blowings its > > > > > > > > >horn...Second, CNN, which first aired the clip, was > > > > > > > > >and still is accused of airing an old clip which was > > > > > > > > >taking during the Iraq war, except , sadly, no media > > > > > > > > >outlet would ever let the story run, nor deny or > > > > > > > > >confirm the reports.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Now i dont know if that is right or wrong, I do > > > > > > > > >believe that YES, its very possible that there does > > > > > > > > >exist a palestinian women who danced in the streets, > > > > > > > > >and its so re-assuring that a camera somehow found her > > > > > > > > >dancing and aired her image, two hours after the > > > > > > > > >incident.....I would think there would be more > > > > > > > > >pressing issues at that time,but i guess a Palestinian > > > > > > > > >women supposedly dancing in the streets of > > > > > > > > >Palestine,is more important than the those tens and > > > > > > > > >thousands of casualties and the chaos that was > > > > > > > > >happening here.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I guess the Palestinians where just about to get there > > > > > > > > >independence and your blessings, and this women came > > > > > > > > >and screwed everything up for us!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >BTW, the women was kinda a heavy set, so i wouldnt > > > > > > > > >realy call it "Jumping up for Joy", the poor old lady > > > > > > > > >could barely walk, but she was eating sweets, which > > > > > > > > >does probably translate to her as jumping up for > > > > > > > > >joy!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-community@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
