I was afraid I would get a response like this and I apologize I even said it. Trust me, I was not trying to be sexist. I apologize if it came off that way. I was just trying to take another angle at it. Maybe I should have worded the "dominant" statement more clearly, but I didn't think I would have to. Knowing this list, everybody reads between the lines and interprets the words how they think they should be interpreted. I didn't mean to imply that *all* men are dominant - it was just a generality. I think that we can agree that *a lot* of men are dominant in nature. I DON'T imply that *all* women are not dominent and I don't imply that men are dominant over women. If I were to imply that women are subserviant to men, that would absolutely be a sexist statement, but that's not what I said and hopefully didn't imply. I in NO way think that.
What I meant to imply was, on *average* and as a *general* rule, I would think that men engage in and enjoy rough games more than women do. With this *general* rule in mind, one could assume that some (not all) women might have very different thoughts about rough games and their usefullness. Of course, these are just general assumptions because, obviously, every human being is different. Take yourself for example, you played rugby. BTW - I think that's great! But you have to admit that you probably don't see to many women playing rugby. I don't know, maybe I'm just digging myself deeper into this hole. Sometimes my thoughts don't come out clearly into words. Again, I apologize if I came off sexist because I'm not sexist at all. I'll shut-up for now... Mark -----Original Message----- From: BethF [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 11:52 AM To: CF-Community Subject: Dodgeball and Sexism I played rugby for several years before my knees went out, so you are being sexist. I have no kids and no man is dominant over me. In fact, saying that men are more dominant is one of the most sexist statements I have ever heard in my entire life. Men aren't more dominant they just enjoy hurting each other more than women do, generally. I wouldn't necesarily say this is a quality I admire in them. I have a brother who is mild mannered, terrible at sports and got the crap kicked out of him in bombardment. He didn't have the skills nor the inclination to kick back. In the school we went to it wasn't respected that my brother had incredible grades, was probably the brightest kid in school (he got one question incorrect on his SAT's - he is very bright) - the only thing that mattered was that he was lousy at sports. I actually enjoyed both dodgeball and bombardment, but I think its an inappropriate game for gym class, really - the object is to hurt other kids. We should teach our kids that hurting other kids is wrong. Now, I know this is going to spiral into another argument about how you schmucks think we should teach our children to do whatever it takes to get on top, including hurting and stepping on others, because what really matters is winning - but I think to teach our kids this does them and the rest of the world a grave disservice. --Beth, Pseudo usenet cop Merlin MTB, BikeE AT, RANS gliss, Trek R200, Kickbike Owned by Kavik (Samoyed Boy) and Toklat (Keeshond Boy) Anchorage, Alaska ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Stewart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 1:12 PM Subject: RE: Church and State > Well, that's the whole premise of football. Knock the living sh** out of > the person carrying the ball until he doesn't want to get back up. The > problem is that people, like a previous post said, want to make > everybody equal - It will never happen. Kids need to be challenged and > learn to take defeat and learn to win. > > DISCLAIMER - I'M NOT BEING SEXIST: It is interesting though that a lot > of women might have a problem with this because women are naturally > motherly, nurturing and always watching after their young. Whereas men > tend to be more dominant and would enjoy a rough game like dodge ball > where you can peg someone in the head with a ball. I think it's just the > natural order of things. Do you have any brothers Beth? > > Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BethF [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 3:18 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: Church and State > > > Challenged sure! But a game whose premise is to hit other folks as hard > as > possible with a ball isn't what I would call challenging, its what i > would > call unsportsmanlike. > > --Beth, Pseudo usenet cop > Merlin MTB, BikeE AT, RANS gliss, Trek R200, Kickbike > Owned by Kavik (Samoyed Boy) and Toklat (Keeshond Boy) > Anchorage, Alaska > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 8:27 AM > Subject: Re: Church and State > > > > Dodge ball is not used to make geeky kids feel geekier and athletic > kids > > feel superior. It's a game that gives kids exercise and helps them > with > > eye hand coordination not to mention have a little fun. It also > teaches > > kids how to work as a team in order to achieve a common goal. It > > teaches kids how to deal with failure and also how to win humbly. > These > > are important life lessons for kids to learn. You would actually be > > doing those kids that you consider geeky a disservice. Extending your > > logic, maybe the schools should lower their standards so that dumb > kids > > aren't made to feel dumber and smart kids superior and higher > standards > > of education should not be encouraged by teachers. Music programs > > should be cut because some kids aren't musically inclined and in order > > to save them from shame, we should not encourage such things. Cut art > > classes because some kids can't even draw a stick figure. Kids need > to > > be challenged. Absurd. > > > > Michael Corrigan > > Programmer > > Endora Digital Solutions > > 1900 S. Highland Avenue, Suite 200 > > Lombard, IL 60148 > > 630/627-5200 x-136 > > 630/627-5255 Fax > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: BethF > > To: CF-Community > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 11:14 AM > > Subject: Re: Church and State > > > > > > I agree with most of what you have said below - if someone isn't > > comfortable > > with another persons religious acts, its just too bad. > > > > However, I disagree about dodge ball - any game which is used to > make > > geeky > > kids feel geekier and athletic kids feel superior shouldn't be > > encouraged by > > teachers, IMO. > > > > --Beth, Pseudo usenet cop > > Merlin MTB, BikeE AT, RANS gliss, Trek R200, Kickbike > > Owned by Kavik (Samoyed Boy) and Toklat (Keeshond Boy) > > Anchorage, Alaska > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:46 PM > > Subject: RE: Church and State > > > > > > > Interesting you should touch on the "comfortable issue." I was > just > > > thinking about this earlier today and how this is one variable we > > haven't > > > touched on this discussion. > > > > > > The great liberal commandment: "Thou shalt not make another person > > > uncomfortable." That's B.S. > > > > > > There is no guarantee, not in the constitution, not in nature, not > > in the > > > normal course of human interaction that you will always feel > > comfortable. > > > Education, by its very nature, is discomforting. > > > > > > One of the most ridiculous things I've read about recently is > > schools > > > banning that age-old school yard game, dodge ball. They ban it > > because, > > > gosh darn it, some kids just aren't good at it. Well, I wasn't > the > > best > > > athlete in elementary school and was often picked last for teams. > > And > > while > > > I couldn't dodge the ball very well, I sure could throw it > (learning > > to > > > throw was a skill my dad taught me early, thankfully). It was > always > > a > > great > > > feeling of accomplishment when I threw the ball and hit one of the > > kids > > who > > > were among those who teased me. It was a legal and > unchallengeable > > chance > > > for revenge. Furthermore, many of the greatest Americans, > > politicians and > > > business leaders, were kids who were not the toughest in school, > or > > the > > most > > > skilled. They were nerds, often. Yet, being teased, being made > > > uncomfortable, made them stronger, and they often by passed the > > "cool" > > kids > > > by the time they became adults. > > > > > > In uncomfort, sometimes life's greatest lessons are learned. > Instead > > of > > > teaching kids that nobody has a right to make them feel > > uncomfortable, we > > > need to teach them that they need to grow a thicker skin. > > > > > > Because religion makes someone uncomfortable is a very poor reason > > to keep > > > religion out of schools. Religion is one of the most fundamental > > aspects > > of > > > life. It informs our entire history. Much of our classic > literature > > is > > > nearly unintelligible without an understanding of Western > religious > > > traditions. Instead of teaching children that religion is > something > > evil > > > and should be left unsaid, pushed into a corner and dismissed as > > irrelevant, > > > maybe we should teach them about tolerance and acceptance of > > religious > > > belief. That's probably the best reason, because all of the legal > > and > > > constitutional ones, for making sure some accommodations are made > > for > > > religion on our school grounds. > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Nick McClure [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:59 PM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: Church and State > > > > > > > > > >That is why there are churches too. > > > > > > But the students don't go to the same church, they do go to the > same > > school. > > > > > > > > A teacher can use their room for a group, like the drama club > > and that > > > > > doesn't bother you, but if it is a religious club, you just > > > > > happen to want > > > > > to study in that room. > > > > > > > >What? This is a flawed argument. Religion is highly volatile. You > > totally > > > >missed my point in the email. > > > > > > I don't think I missed your point. You think that groups should be > > allowed > > > to use the school so long as they are not limited to people of a > > certain > > > religion. But then you said "But my point is that I may want to go > > there > > to > > > study or whatever." > > > > > > So you are saying that groups who only allow people of a certain > > religion > > > to join don't keep you from studying. But others don't? Also the > > school > > > provides facilities made specifically for students to study, it is > > mandated > > > to be quite, and there are ample research tools to use. > > > > > > >No big deal. Not a Christian argument anyway, it is a religious > > one. > > > >Religion should be kept out of public areas payed for by all of > our > > tax > > > >dollars from people from all denominations (and no > denominations). > > I do > > not > > > >want anyone, anywhere, to be made to feel uncomfortable by people > > > practicing > > > >there faith in a public area, for whatever reason and whatever > > faith. It > > > >seems simple enough to just use a church for this. > > > > > > Groups use school facilities all the time. The private catholic > > school > > > plays basketball against the public school in school facilities. > Is > > there > > > anything wrong with this? > > > > > > So what you are saying, Religious groups can't use park > facilities, > > > schools, community centers, or the like if they show up as a > group? > > The > > > people pay taxes just like the rest of us, why keep them from > using > > their > > > facilities? So for churches that don't have any open lawn want to > > hold a > > > picnic at the local park and they call to reserve a shelter, they > > should > > be > > > denied? That seems like they are being denied the right to > assemble. > > > > > > I am sick of the idea that people should go out of there way to > make > > you > > > comfortable. So what. If you aren't comfortable seeing a Moslem > stop > > and > > > pray when the time comes, even if he just happens to be walking > down > > the > > > street, then that is your problem, not mine or anybody else's. You > > seeing > > > that makes you that uncomfortable, then get a grip, we are a > divers > > > society, we should be glad people do that and are not ridiculed. > To > > hide > > > things like this takes away from one of the great abilities of > this > > country. > > > > > > We are different, many cultures, many people, living their lives > in > > peace, > > > nobody feeling out of place. If we could open our eyes, and see > that > > just > > > because this person pray at dusk, this person prays at dawn, and > > this > > > person doesn't pray, that we are still people, and we can be > > friends, and > > > we can respect each other. Differences of faith or opinion should > > not keep > > > people from being comfortable. > > > > > > If you are uncomfortable seeing people go about their lives, then > > stay at > > > home and close the blinds. While you have the right to go about > your > > lives, > > > the rest of us have the right to go about ours. We should not out > of > > our > > > way to hide our differences, we should go out of our way to > > celebrate > > them. > > > > > > I don't care about Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, If you have > read > > what I > > > said in many other posts, I am not a Christian, I am an agnostic. > If > > you > > > would look beyond your general dislike for people with faith, you > > would > > see > > > that they are people too. If one person would allow one group > > access, but > > > not another, then that is wrong, as matter of fact it is illegal. > > > > > > If you read the first Amendment to the Constitution it states: > > > "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of > religion, > > or > > > prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of > > speech, > > > or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, > > and to > > > petition the Government for a redress of grievances." > > > > > > This to me says that any law passed that has any thing to do with > > religion > > > is unconstitutional. It also states that people have the right to > > assemble > > > so long as they don't cause any trouble. > > > > > > You can't deny a group use of public facilities because it might > > cause a > > > problem. This would be like arresting somebody for just saying > hello > > to a > > > prostitute. You can't do it. There must first be a crime, then > deal > > with > > > it. If you feel a problem might occur, make the group pay for > > additional > > > security. That is what the KKK does when they get on the court > house > > steps > > > in cities around the country. They preach hate, they want to cause > > violence > > > and hatred, and they scream it from the most public place of all. > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ Macromedia ColdFusion 5 Training from the Source Step by Step ColdFusion http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201758474/houseoffusion Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-community@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
